Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

[ItazuraNhomango]

I'd like to see a creation of an "Endgame" sub-forum for civilized discussions on topics more tailored to Lv.75 players and those Dreams members with deep interests in the game mechanisms.


What belongs:

• Endgame activities: Sky/Sea/Land (H)NMs, Salvage, Dynamis, Limbus, etc.
• Game mechanism.
• Endgame gearing and merit allocation.
• Best practices associated with endgame linkshells.
• Links to threads/topics off-site with relevant info and discussion.

What does not belong:

• Endgame linkshell drama.
• Loot drama. (e.g. Stealing LS properties, etc.)
• "Endgame board" vs. some other "endgame board" debates/insults.

Requirements for thread/post:

• Relevant topic.
• Good manners, civil tone.

If this "Endgame" sub-forum is created, I'd like to see strict enforcements from the moderators. Wrong topics should be moved without hesitation, and drama threads locked without mercy. Drifting off topic should tolerated as long as the subject is still relevant to the sub-forum, however.

Doesn't really matter where on forum it's located, as long as it's reasonable; Dreams in Vana'diel - Main Topics : Endgame Discussions is about as good as any.

* * *

Probably going to regret this, but I nominate myself for the position of moderator to help, er, patrol the "Endgame" sub-forum.

Privileges desired:

• Split posts into separate threads
• Combine posts into single thread.
• Renaming thread.
• Move thread out of forum.
• Lock/unlock thread.
• Sticky/unsticky thread.

(i.e. Nothing in that list should look weird. I do intend to fully exercise all powers listed, though--that, may be weird.)

Don't want those privileges for any other portion of the site. Obviously, I only want the job if "Endgame" sub-forum will be created.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

Probably going to regret this, but I nominate myself for the position of moderator to help, er, patrol the "Endgame" sub-forum.

If you're allowed to do that, and said forum ever comes in to existence, then by every mean I second this nomination.

[Murphie]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

Honestly, we have enough mods around here with endgame experience that I don't see much need for another.

[Feba]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

# Good manners, civil tone.

Good luck.

And really, nominating yourself as moderator seems pretty selfish. Why in the world are our existing mods insufficient?

[Murphie]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

Not that I think an endgame subforum is a bad idea. I don't. I just don't think it would require special moderation that our current neverending roster of mods couldn't already manage.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

Well, on the flipside, I don't think Itaz would make a bad mod . . .

But, nominating oneself is, indeed, in quite bad taste.

Also, I noticed Itaz's title "Sticky Paws," and I found it amusing in a new light, considering how obsessed he is with stickies.

[Murphie]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

To be fair, the discussion in this thread is far too focused on the moderator aspect instead of the subforum aspect. We should be talking about the latter more than the former. Then again, half of the OP was devoted to the moderator aspect, so...

[Icemage]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

Speaking as an active endgamer, I'm not all that sure that bringing the drama/egotism from that universe into this place is all that good an idea. Just take a look at BG and see what a mess those forums are; they can't moderate it they way they'd like because it would drive all the users away.

We can talk about endgaming here in general, but creating a specific subforum for it would invite that culture into this place, and that's not something I'd look forward to.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

Yeah, I think the reason we all like DiV is it gets away from a LOT of the problems the other forums have. Inviting those problems here would just push people to find another haven from the insanity.

We've tried the Endgame forum on LBR and well, I think I successfully suffocated it myself with some similar rules to the ones IfritnoItazura thought out. But deep down I just knew I didn't want the shit on our forum because it all started with "Well, if you would read the BG forums..." this, that and the other and I knew it would always go back to that. So it was more like I was Dr. Kevorkian to that forum, killed it myself for the good of the rest of the forum.

Its now our least visited forum and I think I'm just gonna ask to bury it, lol.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

While posting in the potenency of enfeebling magic thread, I noticed it drifted off into Bio III RDM vs. Bio II BLM comparison. Also, when mentioning the potency of Blind, it was useful to compare with Kurayami's potency.

Discussions like those do not strictly belong to any of the job forums, and seem somewhat ill fitted to the general forum as well. Same for shield blocking, effects of defense and attack, effects of days and weather on spells, etc. So, I thought it may be a good idea to have a forum for game mechanisms.

However, game mechanism by itself probably wouldn't have that much interest. Then it hit me that endgame may be a compatible addition; hardcore players are the ones interested in game mechanisms, and they are the ones more likely to have Lv.75 jobs. So, expanded the idea to include endgame.

Plus, "Endgame" is a better sounding name than "Game Mechanism" or "Advanced Topics", at least to my ears.

I proposed a few ground rules to hopefully keep the drama to a minimum--basically, lock and move anything which doesn't belong. While heavy handed, it seems like Allakhazam's endgame forum is using that approach, and managed to escape the drama plague infecting BG for the most part.

Perhaps we can one up that and create an even more pleasant environment?

While I understand fearing those unwanted elements, I'm really not worried about dramatist/egoist mentality trying infiltrate this board; a few quick locks and admonitions should send those flamers away. Some other forum may fear losing those firebrand endgame'rs, but we never had them to begin with, so why be afraid of insisting on civility?

* * *

One of the things I'd like to see int the endgame/game mechanism sub-forum is some nicely organized stickies to help people locate major, relevant information or discussions. The stickies will have to change and evolve depending on the contents people present, and hopefully can be integrated with the wiki system at some point.

Another feature would be enforced topic tagging, to better identify each thread. Moderators should rename unclear threads to more meaningful ones, and add those tags.

For example, if someone creates a thread with the topic

"Should I try?"

that wouldn't be terribly informative. If a moderator sees that, checks the content, and discovers it's really about asking whether the OP should or should not create a static, low man Limbus group, the moderator can rename the topic to

"[Limbus] Low-man group creation questions."

That renaming should become a standard practice for this sub-forum.

* * *

As for nominating myself, it's because I'd like to see the new sub-forum heavily moderated, strictly enforcing the rules. However, that would mean a lot extra work, and not very nice to shove it on to other people. That is, since I brought up the idea of a strictly moderated new sub-forum, I should volunteer my time for it.

More than happy to withdrawal my nomination if the admin/moderation team says "We got it; no worries," or "We have someone else in mind."

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

Have you actually moderated a forum before, though? People here, LBR and BG were doing it more or less for the love of the game and I can't say its exactly fun when the drama starts, its a headache, really. Sometimes it doesn't end as quickly as you'd like it to.

BG was a small endgame forum that got too big to control, LBR is on the opposite end - we unwittingly attracted various players to Odin and a lot of our drama comes from people hoping to become a "star" in the LS (its just a social, really) or forum and basically misunderstand what LBR was about. In both cases, its basically about people coming out of the woodwork to satisfy their egos. Endgame tends to attract that a bit more... well, a LOT more.

Just as an example, let's say there's a Kirin thread. There's a few ways to do it. Let's say you're in a struggling LS and you did the kite strategy. Can we expect some jackass to crop up and say "If you were in a good endgame LS you'd just burn it with K Club DRKs" or "Welcome to 2004." Seriously, I've heard this shit.

Its all going to come down to the status for some of these people and where there's desire for status, there's ego and drama isn't far behind.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

Have you actually moderated a forum before, though?

I realize this is probably a rhetorical question, but the answer is: "Yes, a small one."

Its all going to come down to the status for some of these people and where there's desire for status, there's ego and drama isn't far behind.

And, this isn't a question, but I'll answer anyway: I expect about the same; any endgame forum will attract some fools. Then again, every forum attracts fools to begin with.

I remain optimistic the negative aspects can be brought under control, if the moderators are willing to exercise their powers liberally. How the forum starts off is especially important, IMO, for it sets the tone for rest of time.

* * *

Look it another way; if we tried, and failed, so what? Lock and mothball the failed attempt, and just blame it all on me. No big deal.

If we succeed, however, wouldn't it be nice to able to offer the entire player base the chance to have an cordial discussion over endgame activities, with the likes of Icemage contributing in-game experience, Armando adding informed speculations based on known and hypothesized game mechanism, and Yellow Mage doing the cheerleading?

I'd like to help create a place where any neophyte endgame player can feel safe to ask: "What did we do wrong on Kirin?"

Wouldn't you?

[Sevv]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

Here is my whole take on the "endgame forum" The majority of the info will be copy and pasted from BG. There is no denying that fact, if it has to do with practiced endgame it has been posted there.

As well as if you get into an endgame forum style post, strategies and such you are looking at bringing elitism into the forums. Moderation or not, when I get honest about how I play or I party, fingers get pointed at me calling me and elitist. I am a bit of an elitist when I exp, or fight nms because I like to use the least amount of time necessary to accomplish these things. There are people much worse about it then me, because I tend to offer the helping hand/teach people the way to accomplish things in the game.

Personally about Itaz being a mod of the forum, this is where I would have to strongly disagree.
1) We have so many mods on this forum.
2) We have current mods with a good deal of endgame exp.
3) If we gonna have an new mod for the endgame forum, I would hope they would have a great deal of exp in all things endgame. Atleast have kill #'s near me.

Nothing personal Just my feelings on the new section.


Oh ps. Murphie for president '08

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

As long as the source of information is attributed, it's fine where ever it came from. What I see as problem with the existing (default) endgame discussion is all the drama, and that's reason for bringing such topics to Dreams, where a more active and objective tradition of forum moderating prevails.

The major source of flaming I see are largely from some combination of:
- Intra-LS and inter-LS arguments.
- "Personality" drama.
- Loot disagreements.

If all those are locked on sight, without exception, things in the sub-forum should be relatively calm. That is my hope, anyway.

* * *

Perhaps I have a different view of what moderators should do, Sev, but I don't find lacking endgame experience to be a major issue. It's not about passing judgment on whether some info is good/bad/worthy/useless--it's more about "This is flame?" "On topic?" "Game mechanism or more of a general job question?"

Don't need fight Tiamat to know "lolskyls noobs u dont no jack gtfo land go kite kirin" is flame.

Also, one of the goals is to have a "safe place" for neophyte endgame players to ask questions--I am one such player. It'd be easy for me to put myself in shoes of other such posters, and judge whether the response is helpful or hostile.

* * *

Of course, if there is sufficient staffing for the moderator team, and the team is willing to pick up the extra work which would probably result from such a sub-forum, there would be no need to add me as a moderator.

Otherwise, I'm volunteering my time and energy to lock hostile posts and move inappropriate topics for this new sub-forum I'm proposing--I want to help, that's all, should the powers that be deem me worthy. ^_^

* * *

Edit:

I would really like to see the creation of a civilized, combined game mechanism + endgame discussion sub-forum, and believe the key to success is strict forum moderation--to put out the flames before they burn, sort to speak.

The issue of whether or not there needs to be a new or assigned moderator for such a sub-forum is secondary. (I've no insight into the staffing level or the level of interests of the moderator team anyway.)

[Icemage]

Re: Proposal: "Endgame" sub-forum

I can support the idea of adding a game mechanics discussion subforum, such as you find on StudioGhobli. There really isn't an English speaking equivalent, and that I could see as being very useful, as there are a number of us here with a bent for research.

The problem I have is with "endgame" as a topic. The dichotomy is that most of the people with the first-hand experience of endgame tend to be unsociable types. I'm not just talking about BG, either. If you look at the other sites, and even here at DiV, most of the people who post actively from the endgame perspective and who actually have useful first-hand experience just aren't what I'd call good role models.

In any case, any such forum would have to be heavily policed to avoid it degenerating into bad taste, as most of the people who could contribute to a topic aren't going to like the rules we'd have to apply, especially not after years of being used to environments like BG allows.


Icemage