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**Taskmage** · 03-28-2006, 10:48 PM

Re: Before locking up threads ...

I don't consider my position and Pai Pai Master's to be in conflict. We want to know what you think or this thread wouldn't still be open. Establishing a policy is a good thing to do, but when it comes down to it the real rules are defined by the discretion of individual moderators. Both mods referenced in relation to the other thread excercised their own discretion, and while they acted entirely differently, I don't believe that either acted wrongly.

Concerning your PM problems, I'm too new to address that directly. If you have an issue with a Moderator and that person isn't resolving the situation with you to your satisfaction, you should go over their head and contact an Administrator about the problem. If that recourse fails, then feel free to come to the community and decry the failings of the system, but please exhaust the system before you do that. These procedures are in place for a reason, and I'd ask you to respect that.

**Pai Pai Master** · 03-28-2006, 10:57 PM

Re: Before locking up threads ...

This thread is not still open to argue about moderators.

This thread is still open so we can get feedback from you. I'd like to know how you think we could have handled the situation better, as our decision is apparently incorrect in your opinion. If you cannot provide us with constructive discussion about how you think we can deal with such things in the future, please take your grievances to Private Messaging.

This thread has been moved to Site Comments/Suggestions.

**little ninja** · 03-28-2006, 11:14 PM

Re: Before locking up threads ...

Originally posted by Pai Pai Master

This thread is not still open to argue about moderators.

This thread is still open so we can get feedback from you. I'd like to know how you think we could have handled the situation better, as our decision is apparently incorrect in your opinion. If you cannot provide us with constructive discussion about how you think we can deal with such things in the future, please take your grievances to Private Messaging.

This thread has been moved to Site Comments/Suggestions.

i think NT did the right thing, an did exactly what you said. he moved it to a new area cause of the direction of the topic. then he told us to becareful so the thread did not go south. because he felt we still were discussing it rationally. he acted, the exact way in which you wrote.

something aint right when one MOD feels its still an ok thread, an another closes it. thats a conflict of the policy. an basically one MOD saying their OP on the thread is more correct. TGM gave us their final OP on the topic then closed it.

**KamuroIshigami** · 03-28-2006, 11:17 PM

Re: Before locking up threads ...

Dear little ninja,

Thank you for your concern.

Please be aware that the moderators are given some discretion as to how they apply the rules. Please be aware that each circumstance is different and each thread involves different people and generally we try to be as liberal as possible without being too totalitarian about our rules. Because of this, PiNG provided a general guideline as to what moderators and other administrators should do to maintain order on the boards.

Therefore, due to the generality of the guidelines and the almost impossibility to predict all possible situations to provide exact rules, moderators are told to excerise somewhat reasonable discretion when acting on their powers. Please keep in mind that some moderators prefer a proactive approach, while others are more passive; hence while one moderator may not close a thread, it doesn't mean another will not once they see it. Even if the actions of two moderators given a situation are different, none of them are wrong, and neither of the two have abused their powers. Simply put, they have applied the rules slightly differently. This is the same in the real world with judges ranging from lower State Circuit Courts to Federal District Courts to the Supreme Court of the United States.

Also, it is important to note that we can only patrol so many areas so far, and so much, so we might be able to catch some problems and not others. In this case, we would appreciate if you report such posts to us.

Please also further note that moderators are allowed to give warnings, but cannot by themselves take it back, yet (I think PiNG is going to fix that). Upon a request of a moderator, an administrator can undo the warning, but only an administrator can undo any warnings. (This should change soon.)

If you have a problem with a decision made by a moderator, please PM that moderator to try to resolve it. If that moderator does not resolve it to your satisfaction, you may contact ONE OTHER moderator to ask for a second opinion to try to resolve it with the first moderator. If the result is still not to your satisfaction, then you may contact an administrator (not PiNG) to try to resolve the situation. If you are still not satisfied with the result, you may then FINALLY contact PiNG via PM to ask for a FINAL APPEAL. Please note that PiNG may choose to ignore you, and repeated PMs may result in a permanent ban or total ignore of you from him.

IMPORTANT: What ever PiNG decides is absolutely positively final, no ands, no ifs, and no buts. That is it, once PiNG says it, that ends the discussion. Too freaking bad if you don't like it.

If you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me.

Thank you,
AKosygin
FFXIOnline Moderation and Administration Team.

**TheGrandMom** · 03-28-2006, 11:20 PM

Re: Before locking up threads ...

As for the thread in question and Neighbor's post before mine, I did not see his post. I had opened the thread and while responding I received a phone call. When I got back to the puter, I finished my response and posted. If I had read Neighbor's post before I had posted, I may have talked to him in PM's (something that users need to do when they have questions) about it.

I personally have never received a PM from a user with a question (pertaining to being a mod). I answer all of my PM questions otherwise. I have a feeling little ninja that no matter what answer you got to your question, it would never be good enough for you based on your posts in the forums. That could be one of the reasons you feel your questions are not answered in PM's.

**little ninja** · 03-28-2006, 11:26 PM

Re: Before locking up threads ...

well AKosygin, i feel that we need the MODS to meet half way between the passive, an the proactive. an we really cant have MODS contridicting each other.

Originally posted by TheGrandMom

As for the thread in question and Neighbor's post before mine, I did not see his post. I had opened the thread and while responding I received a phone call. When I got back to the puter, I finished my response and posted. If I had read Neighbor's post before I had posted, I may have talked to him in PM's (something that users need to do when they have questions) about it.

I personally have never received a PM from a user with a question (pertaining to being a mod). I answer all of my PM questions otherwise. I have a feeling little ninja that no matter what answer you got to your question, it would never be good enough for you based on your posts in the forums. That could be one of the reasons you feel your questions are not answered in PM's.

definately needs to be more communications between mods. unless its totally obvious. one mod says be careful, another mod a post later closes it. has happened before.

as for PM's go TGM. im nto saying its you. but i know of a few MODS who never returned an email, especially when all it pertained to was a question. it doesnt matter what answer i was gonna be given, it was the fact i was never answered.

**KamuroIshigami** · 03-28-2006, 11:40 PM

Re: Before locking up threads ...

Dear little ninja,

So far the mods have not contradicted each other as you have implied, but rather expressed a different view on the application of the rules and what they each feel is better for the boards. Because of this general grey area many threads or rules sits upon, each has to be judged individually and to say half way between passive and proactive, it is quite difficult to define. How much is proactive? How much is passive? And what is considered too proactive and what is considered too passive for a given application for a particular rule based upon a situation?

To outline this down to the tiniest detail would take too long and is virtually impossible for all circumstances to be useful. As such, much latitude is generally given. Maybe if you provided a specific example (link), I maybe willing to entertain the example and give you what [I]I personally[I] think of that specific topic for that specific example.

If you are in the grey area, please expect a somewhat different response from each moderator.

Thank you,
AKosygin
FFXIOnline.com Moderation and Administration Team

**PingTestAcc** · 03-28-2006, 11:53 PM

Re: Before locking up threads ...

Originally posted by little ninja

... or answer why i even have a warning, when they wrote that i was cleared of all charges.

That Warnings: 1 you see is ONLY a historical information. You should have gotten a PM about your warning being cleared. (Depending on what you have gotten warned for, 3-7 days)

It's only for record. These historical records get cleared every 365 Days.

If you feel that you recieved warning points unfairly you are always welcome to talk to me about it. Once in a while I usually go around each history and manually delete all the entries for people that I usually see very active. It seems I may have over looked and probably missed you (There are many pages I have to go through). But even if I did, thoes records are meant to automatically disappear every year.

Manual deletion of the history is only accessible by either me or Akosygin.

When you have a warning point that's currently active you should see status like how it's shown here. (WARNING LEVEL)

ALSO, that "Warnings: 1" is ONLY viewed by your self and moderators, No other users on the forum will see that history. Don't think you are being marked publicly for warnings. That's not the case here.

Hope this explains your question.

-PiNG

**little ninja** · 03-29-2006, 12:09 AM

Re: Before locking up threads ...

actually i remember complaining cause (warning level 2 ) was still showing up after i got the message. now i noticed a red 1 i figured it was still the same thing. only written differently. an apon recieving the warning i contacted the warner. with no response back. after that i sent you an email. no response back =/. maybe you dont remember, or maybe i never it never got sent. not 100% sure either way.

back on topic, i still believe mods should communicate more with each other. its something i used to do along time ago when i did a little MoD. if it was so obvious we were aloud to rule with an iron fist. if it was questionable, then MoDs who were on basically got together an ruled on it. usually it was 2 mods who conversed on the subject, then the apropriate action was taken. usually a warning the thread would be closed.

i cant sleep so if that sounds like im rambling. i will word it better on more then 3 hrs sleep.

**Grizzlebeard** · 03-29-2006, 12:27 AM

Re: Before locking up threads ...

To continue with the discussion, I maintain threads should only be locked in extreme cases where the content is in extreme violation of good taste, decency, and risking the continuation of the board such as posting material which could legally damage the board, its members, and staff.

If left to themselves most threads eventually die out when people either reach an agreement, whether that be agreeing to differ, or otherwise. The actions of TGM locking that thread left a bad taste in my mouth and doesn't bode well for her future moderation style. Call me elitist, but I take umbrage to someone who has been around on these boards less time than me suddenly enforcing what she feels is right and wrong on what was once a melting pot for players from many walks of life with many differing viewpoints. If we're now expected to adhere to the values of middle America someone please confirm this now and I'll walk away from these boards for good.

**PiNG** · 03-29-2006, 01:18 AM

Re: Before locking up threads ...

Originally posted by little ninja

actually i remember complaining cause (warning level 2 ) was still showing up after i got the message. now i noticed a red 1 i figured it was still the same thing. only written differently. an apon recieving the warning i contacted the warner. with no response back. after that i sent you an email. no response back =/. maybe you dont remember, or maybe i never it never got sent. not 100% sure either way.

back on topic, i still believe mods should communicate more with each other. its something i used to do along time ago when i did a little MoD. if it was so obvious we were aloud to rule with an iron fist. if it was questionable, then MoDs who were on basically got together an ruled on it. usually it was 2 mods who conversed on the subject, then the apropriate action was taken. usually a warning the thread would be closed.

i cant sleep so if that sounds like im rambling. i will word it better on more then 3 hrs sleep.

Hey, just cool down a bit and relax.

We'll get together and figure things out. I give freedom to moderators and make all of them able to moderate all parts of the site. Most of times I trust the moderators to take their own approporiate action. The reason is sometimes things needs to be shutdown faster than it takes times to discuss about it.

What we used to do was lock -> discuss -> unlock or move to moderated archive forum. Perhaps that will need to comeback, but for now I do not wish to put extra "steps" into moderating. But rules on moderating is never in stone, so if it needs to be changed, It will be.

I always tell new moderators to take it easy and don't treat moderating as a choire, because I really hate giving unneccessary burden on people. I treat giving permission to moderate on these forums as simply another "Rank" that anyone will able to do.

It is very rare that we run into arguments with members. Feel free to contact me regarding anything if you have any more questions.

As for your warning history, i'll manually clear it. It may not have been explained properly in first place. I'll explain in a different article/thread about entire warning system and how it works.

-PiNG

Double Post Edited: