Understanding Hate. [A few questions.]

[Serial Rain]

Hello,

I've been wondering for quite a while now how hate/enmity in the game works. I've never bothered on reading any sites with those hate calculations on and whatnot (I don't remember what the link to it is now. :\), but I want to know more about it now.

How exactly does hate addition for each player in the party works? When a player performs an action that causes hate, does it overwrite over the previous hate? (From my experiences, that's how I feel about it)

Ex. (Hate values are just made up)
Paladin uses Provoke on target. (+12 hate)
Dragoon readies Weapon Skill Chain; uses Skewer. (+5 hate, removes 5 hate from Pld and adds to himself)
Paladin casts Flash on target. (+12 hate; removes 12 hate from Drg and adds to himself.)
Thief uses Sneak/Trick Attack +Dancing Edge from Paladin. (+24 hate; removes 24 hate from Pld, adds 24 hate to Drg. Monster faces Drg.)
Blm Magic Bursts with Water III. (+18 hate; removes 18 hate from Drg and adds 18 hate to himself, making it easier for the Pld to overtake the hate from the Drg.)
Paladin uses Rampart. (+12 hate...)

I doubt that it works like that, but that's all I know about it. For those of you who know more about this, how exactly does it work? Is my interpretation anything close to how it really works at all?

I'm trying to find a way to maintain hate after a thf uses a 800+400 damage Sneak/Trick Dancing Edge on another melee. From level 60-63, I noticed that my maximum damage threshold before I lose hate from another player is around 750 or 760 + renkei bonus in weaponskills, I really want to find a way around that. (I've tried using my JA's inbetween the skills like my example above, it doesn't work 100% of the time. I've also tried saving up all my JA's after the renkei, but that never seems to happen, and I end up using Cover wasting all the JA's.)

Thanks.

[exile2k3]

well, when Im in a PT with a THF, what I usually do is either Souleater or Last Resort+Berserk. The THF is standing behind the PLD at this point. If when I use my weapon skill the enemy doesnt start attacking me(Lets face it, Vorpal Scythe sucks), I just provoke and the THF uses sneak/trick+dancing edge and its back on the PLD, more pissed off than ever.

Your renkei should be taking most of its remaining HP away, if not all. With Dancing Edge I assume you're doing distortion? Teach your BLM how to MB with flood. Having him start to cast flood about 3 seconds before you start your WS should be enough(I think).

[Seul]

Re: Understanding Hate. [A few questions.]

Originally posted by Serial Rain
I'm trying to find a way to maintain hate after a thf uses a 800+400 damage Sneak/Trick Dancing Edge on another melee.

Uh....if you're a pld, why is the thief fuidama'ing the other person?

[Gryff]

Re: Understanding Hate. [A few questions.]

Originally posted by Serial Rain
Hello,

I've been wondering for quite a while now how hate/enmity in the game works. I've never bothered on reading any sites with those hate calculations on and whatnot (I don't remember what the link to it is now. :\), but I want to know more about it now.

How exactly does hate addition for each player in the party works? When a player performs an action that causes hate, does it overwrite over the previous hate? (From my experiences, that's how I feel about it)

Ex. (Hate values are just made up)
Paladin uses Provoke on target. (+12 hate)
Dragoon readies Weapon Skill Chain; uses Skewer. (+5 hate, removes 5 hate from Pld and adds to himself)
Paladin casts Flash on target. (+12 hate; removes 12 hate from Drg and adds to himself.)
Thief uses Sneak/Trick Attack +Dancing Edge from Paladin. (+24 hate; removes 24 hate from Pld, adds 24 hate to Drg. Monster faces Drg.)
Blm Magic Bursts with Water III. (+18 hate; removes 18 hate from Drg and adds 18 hate to himself, making it easier for the Pld to overtake the hate from the Drg.)
Paladin uses Rampart. (+12 hate...)

It would seem to be from playing whm that you cant remove hate from another player, it decreases after time.

So for eg skewer would not remove hate from the paladin, just increase the hate on the dragoon, and if he has more hate than the paladin it will start attacking him.

Getting hit decreases your hate ( again from observation )


A good way of using trick attack ( lets call it trick instead of Fuidama ), is one melee pulls with a throwing weapon, then the thief trick + sneak+ ws and tricks off the paladin.

Or, if you need to do it midfight, another melee can voke or ws to take agro off you and then the thief can trick off you.

It doesn't matter who you trick off if your just finishing a mob, but the real purpose of trick is to shift hate, which is why it should be done at the start of a fight or midfight if the paladin is having a hard time holding agro.

[Celeras]

Re: Re: Understanding Hate. [A few questions.]

Originally posted by Seul


Uh....if you're a pld, why is the thief fuidama'ing the other person?

Thats how thf is played now, at the begining of the fight the Pld is fuda'ed off of to give initial hate, but when it comes down to WS time, they do it off the other melee.

If your good, maintaining hate wont be a problem. Just keep provoking every 30, use your skills, and save that 300% spirits incase you do lose it.

[Serial Rain]

Thanks for taking time to post guys. :

Originally posted by exile2k3
well, when Im in a PT with a THF, what I usually do is either Souleater or Last Resort+Berserk. The THF is standing behind the PLD at this point. If when I use my weapon skill the enemy doesnt start attacking me(Lets face it, Vorpal Scythe sucks), I just provoke and the THF uses sneak/trick+dancing edge and its back on the PLD, more pissed off than ever.

Your renkei should be taking most of its remaining HP away, if not all. With Dancing Edge I assume you're doing distortion? Teach your BLM how to MB with flood. Having him start to cast flood about 3 seconds before you start your WS should be enough(I think).

Yeah, I tend to do that when there is a Drk in the party. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be that many Drk around my level whenever I try to level; there are too many Dragoons. The thing is, sometimes the Thf/othermelee does the renkei shortly after pulling a monster that still has full HP, or sometimes we do it right at the middle, which gives the monster adequate time to pummel the other melee to the ground. It's been a long, long while since I last did a MB with flood... I'll think about that. It's not always that I find a Blm seeking though. My last two parties didn't have blms. ;; (Last one was Thf, Drg, Pld, Whm, Rdm, Brd.)

Originally posted by Seul


Uh....if you're a pld, why is the thief fuidama'ing the other person?

Celeras is right; almost every party I've been to around now does fuidama on the other melee sometimes towards the end of the battle, or sometimes at the middle of the battle, if the other melee isn't a War or Drk. (I think War/Drk will be able to overtake hate from Pld easily if they wanted to, and then fuidama can be performed on the Pld during renkei.)

Originally posted by Gryff


It would seem to be from playing whm that you cant remove hate from another player, it decreases after time.

So for eg skewer would not remove hate from the paladin, just increase the hate on the dragoon, and if he has more hate than the paladin it will start attacking him.

Getting hit decreases your hate ( again from observation )


A good way of using trick attack ( lets call it trick instead of Fuidama ), is one melee pulls with a throwing weapon, then the thief trick + sneak+ ws and tricks off the paladin.

Or, if you need to do it midfight, another melee can voke or ws to take agro off you and then the thief can trick off you.

It doesn't matter who you trick off if your just finishing a mob, but the real purpose of trick is to shift hate, which is why it should be done at the start of a fight or midfight if the paladin is having a hard time holding agro.

Ah, I see... I've never thought about that, I'll try to keep that in mind when I go level again. That'd be nice, but for most of the time we usually do the renkei when the monster has around 1/3 HP, which usually ends up killing it, or at least almost killing it, so our TP would be 0% on the next battle. Sometimes the monster still has a decent amount of HP even after the renkei with a thf though, and that's my problem... /cry

Maybe I'm just worrying too much. It's not like all the parties I'm going to be on will have a Thf, right? /paranoid :sweat:

Thanks.

[exile2k3]

My last two parties didn't have blms. ;; (Last one was Thf, Drg, Pld, Whm, Rdm, Brd.)

Drop the WHM, you dont really need it(sorry WHMs, flood pwnz). If you have a thf drk pld rdm blm brd in a place that gets more than 200 exp a kill(so you gotta chain to get any higher), you should do really well. THF pulls, DRK provokes the enemy. PLD and THF get behind enemy, THF uses sneak/trick, does critical, PLD provokes. When both are ready, DRK tells the whm to start casting flood, and at this point he/she buffs up(berserk, last resort, souleater), then when its time, DRK uses Vorpal Scythe or Power Slash. At this point, the THF should be behind the PLD. If the enemy is not looking at the DRK after s/he does the WS, then the DRK taunts, this will almost certainly get its attention. THF uses Dancing, does 500-900 damage. BLMs flood will get off just in time, flood almost always does 1100+ damage with MB. So you are looking at about 2k gone. 200 from Vorpal/Power, 700 from dancing, and 1100 from MB Flood.

Dont do this until the enemy is around half HP, less than about 30% HP will be sort of a waste, so dont do it on a 0 or 1 chain monster.

The hate should still stick to the PLD, for good measure, the PLD should flash after or before the Flood goes off.

[Jroggy]

Originally posted by Serial Rain
Yeah, I tend to do that when there is a Drk in the party. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be that many Drk around my level whenever I try to level; there are too many Dragoons.

thats funny, on Midgardsormr it's the other way around ;/ last time i checked anyways.

[Jonnyram]

Originally posted by Serial Rain
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be that many Drk around my level whenever I try to level; there are too many Dragoons.

What's wrong with that? Dragoons own!

[Andry]

Re: Re: Re: Understanding Hate. [A few questions.]

Originally posted by Celeras


Thats how thf is played now, at the begining of the fight the Pld is fuda'ed off of to give initial hate, but when it comes down to WS time, they do it off the other melee.

If your good, maintaining hate wont be a problem. Just keep provoking every 30, use your skills, and save that 300% spirits incase you do lose it.

not after 66 when drk/thfs replace thfs. i'm not too fond of thfs anymore(sorry, personal preference ), i find initial thf fuidama is worth sacrificing for a constant 800-1000 fuidama spinslash renkei ender and constant 80+ non WS melee hits.

with a good pld who knows when to pile on aggro abilities ( Goucant, you're the best ), you can have the other melee provoke and WS to draw aggro off the pld, and have the drk fuidama WS on the pld. I can easily MB my strongest spells without fear of getting aggro, even when renkei starts right after pull. I haven't PTed with a drk with Ground Strike yet, but I'd imagine it hits harder than spin slash.

[Andry]

Originally posted by Jonnyram


What's wrong with that? Dragoons own!

not really fond of dragoons either (again personal preference, don't bash me =p)

most of them are paper tanks(hell, my AF chestpiece has the same def as the dragoon chestpiece, and i'm a blm =\), and in Celeras' situation, if the mob doesn't die after renkei(and MB), guess what the average dragoon's gonna do...Super Jump. and guess who the mob's gonna go pay a visit to next after the dragoon's hate goes to 0. me. :dead:

[exile2k3]

not after 66 when drk/thfs replace thfs. i'm not too fond of thfs anymore(sorry, personal preference ), i find initial thf fuidama is worth sacrificing for a constant 800-1000 fuidama spinslash renkei ender and constant 80+ non WS melee hits.

This is why I'm now rushing to 66 as fast as I can.

not really fond of dragoons either (again personal preference, don't bash me =p)

Too bad not very many other people think this. God I wish peeman would stop levelling his DRK, he has like the best equip, hes taking all my invites away!:mad:

[Andry]

never mind, Spinning Slash's better than Ground Strike :mad:

[Ayako2]

Originally posted by Andry
most of them are paper tanks(hell, my AF chestpiece has the same def as the dragoon chestpiece, and i'm a blm =\), and in Celeras' situation, if the mob doesn't die after renkei(and MB), guess what the average dragoon's gonna do...Super Jump. and guess who the mob's gonna go pay a visit to next after the dragoon's hate goes to 0. me. :dead:

A smart Dragoon Super Jumps before the MB. There is a 2-3 second window, plenty of time. After that it's all up to the Paladin. Face it though, you will get hate when doing 1300 MBs from time to time, regardless of what others are doing D;
Paper defense...well yeah -_- Maybe it's my equipment, but my defense certainly is lower than taru mages ><)
Most people don't know how DRGs work, the last 2 or 3 parties, the DRKs wouldn't even Fuidama me, because they don't know how Jump works. I mean, I don't argue with the DRK getting his ass handed to him and after his WS, my evasion is already capped

[Andry]

which's why i said average dragoon