Will NA players ever compete with haijins on the same level?

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Andry


I didn't come here to prove anything. I just came here to say you're wrong. Go find out yourself how they're different.

edit: oh, thank you for showing me how they're the same =)

I think all that playing has finally screwed up your brain Andry....

[Andry]

Originally posted by John Doe III


I think all that playing has finally screwed up your brain Andry....

:dead: :dead: :dead:

[Arnda]

Originally posted by Andry
edit: oh, thank you for showing me how they're the same =)

The burden of proof is on you now. As I've said (claimed), high-end content in MMORPGs is largely based on endurance-match monsters with no real AI. You've disagreed with this (as you have every right to do), but haven't seen fit to explain your disagreement. There are so many reasons why you could be right, but you haven't bothered to explain any of them. Is it different because the monsters have real AI? Is it different because of the way you kill them?

The problem with this kind of response is that it is not only fairly obviously designed to incite flaming, rather than debate, and it doesn't really help your point. I honestly want to know what this vaunted difference is. Telling people to "experience it for yourself" is ridiculous and condescending. I'm sure many people intend to, but whether anyone does or not is irrelevant to the discussion of what they are. Since you have the experience, you ought to share it and enlighten the rest of us. I'm sure it's quite different from, oh, EQ/AO/DAOC/RO/WOW/whatever.

But other than a prettier-looking and better-animated retard mob with 10,000,000,000 HP, how is a HNM encounter fundamentally different?

If HNMs have actual intelligence beyond "hit person with highest hate value very hard, use massive specials of various types, kill all squishy characters in pretty equipment" I'd be surprised. In fact, I'd be flabbergasted. And I'd also laugh, because I know it isn't gonna happen, because intelligent monsters in MMORPGs would tax things too much. Still, maybe S-E has surprised me. Let me know, okay?

Or maybe you kill the HNMs with actual tactics, such as positioning and terrain and elevation and... oh wait, no, you don't do any of that. For all the ups and downs of the terrain the game is fundamentally just a 2D plane and about the only positioning strategy would involve AOEs. I guess you can call class selection and individual player performance as actual tactics in a sense, inasmuch as you can try to minimize the number of people you actually need to bring.

But on a fundamental level, I'm not sure how a hyper-powerful monster is any different from a standard mob beefed up. From all indications they think the same, but with beefier stats and better attacks. Fair enough, it takes a lot of management to prevent everyone from being killed horribly, but the same can be said of every high-end part of a MMORPG. But monsters are predictable, often ridiculously so. They may be tough, but they aren't much different. And that's my argument: These encounters aren't anything fundamentally new to the genre.

This isn't a criticism of the game because I don't think the kind of content I'm talking about is even possible, but it's still a valid point: If one has a degree of high-end content experience in any MMORPG, the basic concepts will carry over. Ignoring interface issues, I imagine you could take a HNM LS from FFXI and drop them in EverQuest and they'd pick up raiding, just as much as a major raid guild in EQ could probably take down HNMs with very little practice (although a fairer comparison might be dropping the raid guild in Dynamis).

If this is incorrect in some clear and essential way, feel free to correct me. But I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary and must assume from what I've heard that it doesn't act in a totally different way.

EDIT: It was also kind of rude to say you "didn't come here to prove anything" as if that makes it acceptable to throw around statements without backing them up. If you didn't come here to prove anything, you shouldn't make qualitative claims. No amount of hand-waving absolves you of the responsibility to substantiate them if someone calls you on them.

But I guess I'll just assume you were teasing, because your avatar is funny.

[Reihn]

Not really an argument

I watched Rag (a 75 ninja I PTed with a couple of times, also happens to be in the same HNM LS as Huguet - I hate Huguet, he's a snob, lol) as 75 NIN/WHM basically fight Serket alone for almost an hour. Occasionally, one of his lazy companions would send a Predator Claw Serket's way. Anyways, I think really the main concerns should be job balance and stuff, lol.

Also, I cleared Dynamis Bastok with a group of 61 japanese players. Only once did a lot of people die: we got linked by 6 enemies and 2 were monks.... so a lot of people died, but we still cleared it. Was kinda boring, I really wish they didnt make Dynamis a blatantly useless money sink vs. those haijins. I wouldnt mind if all I could do with an alliance of my friends was get wiped out in the entrance: If it didnt take 1 million gil to enter I could this plenty of times with my friends until we got some relic stuff. It'd be at least a bit entertaining and we could get some new gear. Otherwise, it's just kinda boring... lol

[Reihn]

I dont mind losing Exp

As long as people dont let me die, like those mages I went on M9-2 with. I can't believe they let me die.... ><

[TheBruce]

Serket/Behemoth aren't hnm's. Not even close. King Behemoth/Fafnir/Faust/Kirin are hnm's.

[exile2k3]

actually, they are. way back when, when the cap was 65, these guys were tough as nails. Although people are much stronger now, they are still HNMs. Thats like saying Leaping Lizzy isn't a NM after you pass level 15.

[TheBruce]

I consider an Hnm a Hard notorious monster. Being able to duo serket or holding the behemoth for 10 minutes with 5 people and no whm while back up arrives is not what I consider hard.

They might have been Hnm's a year ago, but they aren't even close now.

[MAK]

I think Lemia told me some PLD held serket off for 5mins alone..i have no clue how, then said it was drako's mentor.Sorry i forgot the name...

[Andry]

Originally posted by TheBruce
I consider an Hnm a Hard notorious monster. Being able to duo serket or holding the behemoth for 10 minutes with 5 people and no whm while back up arrives is not what I consider hard.

They might have been Hnm's a year ago, but they aren't even close now.

HNM = Hyper Notorious Monster.

You might call em "Hard", but everyone else calls them "Hyper".

[Rico]

Whats the meaning of calling them hyper? o.o do they eat a lot of candy?

[exile2k3]

Originally posted by Andry



HNM = Hyper Notorious Monster.

You might call em "Hard", but everyone else calls them "Hyper".

It's high notorious monster.

[TheBruce]

High/Hard/Hyper, does it matter? Thats like attacking someones grammar because you can't argue the point.

Anyways, on our server at least the Hnm ls is pretty small. FFXI allows you to have a smaller group of people to do most of the hard monsters. It seems squaresoft is moving away from this with dynamis/tulia so the old model of18-22 people for an hnm is being revamped. Na's are used to more people per raid so they might adjust quicker to the extra organization it takes.

The one thing that will stop NA competition with the JP ls as I said before is interest. Wow beta has been released, Lineage II is coming out soon as is City of Heroes. All of these MMO's will take a portion of the community with it where as the japanese are pretty much set on FFXI in terms of MMO's.

Also, drops on some of the easier high level nm's, serket/behemoth/loo/roc are pretty meager. So getting the neccassary equipment to battle hnm's easily will take more time for the NA's.

[Cedric]

Originally posted by exile2k3
It's high notorious monster.

Crunk?

[Awntawn]

I don't know about WoW, but from what I've seen from playing the Lineage 2 beta...

FFXI's throne is safe.