Grappling

[Mezlo]

Re: D&D

That is a very intimidating wall of text.

this. i'm glad i wont be doing any grappling, I'll just be blowing shit up. actually, now i have a question of my own for all of us ranged attack peeps. If armando has a foe grappled, and we took precise shot, so we don't get penalized for a foe being engaged in melee, what penalty does the enemy suffer since armando has him in the death lock? I see us turning mobs into pin cushions fast guys...

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

Yes. To attack a target who is not your grapple target, you must still roll to attack them. On such an attack, you would take a -4 penalty.

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this. i'm glad i wont be doing any grappling, I'll just be blowing shit up. actually, now i have a question of my own for all of us ranged attack peeps. If armando has a foe grappled, and we took precise shot, so we don't get penalized for a foe being engaged in melee, what penalty does the enemy suffer since armando has him in the death lock? I see us turning mobs into pin cushions fast guys...

Enemies being grappled lose their DEX bonus to AC. Other than that. Nothing. Pinned is a different story.

[cidbahamut]

Re: D&D

I stopped trying to follow all of that grappling stuff. I feel like I've lost some nerd cred.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

Tuum Manos
- Heavy Mace, 1d8 Damage, Crit Chance @ 20, Crit Multiplier x2, 15lbs
- The wielder does not suffer the usual -4 penalty for attack rolls made against opponents while acting as the Primary Grappler
- The wielder gains a +2 bonus to avoid being grappled or break free from a grapple

Adjusted. So shall it be.

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I feel like I've lost some nerd cred.

You were never on my level to begin with. To become a DM is to learn the true nature of nerdiness.

[Mezlo]

Grappling Discussion

Only spells that require more than one hand to cast, but a caster who takes the Still Spell feat would not need to worry about that either.

I've never seen the number of hands needed to cast a spell in the spell description. Where can i find that or can you please post it? I kind of just assumed the gesture only involved one hand.

[Armando]

Re: D&D

If armando has a foe grappled, and we took precise shot, so we don't get penalized for a foe being engaged in melee, what penalty does the enemy suffer since armando has him in the death lock? I see us turning mobs into pin cushions fast guys...

Effects on the enemy:
1) -4 Dexterity (-2 to Dexterity modifier.)
2) If his DEX mod is still positive, they lose their DEX bonus to AC. If it's negative, they still get penalized.
3) Rogues can Sneak Attack (because of #2).
4) Can't make attacks of opportunity. Can't attack behind him during his turn.
5) No casting spells that have somatic (hand gesture) components (Still Spell metamagic feat can bypass this.) Not in Yyg's game!
6) If #5 doesn't apply, casting a spell requires a Concentration check.

If I pin it (something I can attempt to do after a successful grapple):
7) Enemy takes an additional -4 AC
8) Enemy is considered helpless (can be tied up or coup de grace'd)

EDIT:

Where can i find that or can you please post it? I kind of just assumed the gesture only involved one hand.

By Pathfinder rules, only one hand is required (that's one of the reasons I don't have a shield even though I still have one-handed weapons.) Good catch, Yyg will have to clear that up.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

I've never seen the number of hands needed to cast a spell in the spell description. Where can i find that or can you please post it? I kind of just assumed the gesture only involved one hand.

Don't sweat it. I highly doubt it will ever matter.

[Armando]

Re: D&D

So enemies can cast spells while grappled even if the spell has a Somatic component?

[Mezlo]

Re: D&D

I'm going to enlarge Armando so we can fire arrows into the mob and make it a pin cushion. Armando grapples and incapacitates > 3 arrows fly into the mob, 2 of them dealing sneak attack damage, one doing 2d8 damage. I think this will be a fine way to mow down our enemies...

[Armando]

Re: D&D

I'm going to enlarge Armando so we can fire arrows into the mob and make it a pin cushion. Armando grapples and incapacitates > 3 arrows fly into the mob, 2 of them dealing sneak attack damage, one doing 2d8 damage. I think this will be a fine way to mow down our enemies...

And that, my magical friend, is why I bothered to pick up Improved Grapple at all, and why I'm taking Greater Grapple at level 7. Almost guarantees I can maintain a grapple (although they can still break out during their turn.)

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

A grapple is still a hard thing to hold onto no matter how many feats you spend on it.

1d20 + BAB + STR Mod is all Armando really has to go on for CMB. At minimum he needs to break the base 10 points of CMD that any mob gets to resist a grapple.

Assuming that he's got a +3 BAB and +2 STR (i honestly don't remember and I'm too lazy to look it up) that's 1d20+5 vs 10 + DEX mod + The enemie's CMB. That's still really tough to do consistantly.

Say for instance he tries to grapple Mezlo with those same stats. Mezlo's CMB is BAB +1? + STR Mod +0 + Size mod +0... so 1?

Mezlo's CDB would then be 10 + 1(CMB) + 4(DEX) for a total of 15. Armando gets a +5 to CMB... so he still needs to roll a 10 or higher. That's exactly a 50/50 chance.

That's not even to mention the fact that Armando will need to succeed every round from there on out simply to maintain the grapple.

It does get easier after you successfully hold them for 1 round though... because of the +5 circumstance bonus. I like to think of it as... tightening the grip.

[Armando]

Re: D&D

A grapple is still a hard thing to hold onto no matter how many feats you spend on it.

Your math is spot-on, but Greater Grapple really is a big improvement. I get two rolls to continue the grapple, but only need one to succeed. If I have a 50% chance, the +5 circumstance bonus to keep the grapple going puts me at 75%. The odds of getting at least 1 roll out of 2 is 93.75% They can break loose during their own turn, but odds are they won't during mine.

Your example also didn't take into consideration Improved Grapple (+2 to all rolls) and Enlarge Person (+1 to STR mod, +1 to size mod), which we already have. That puts my initial chance at 70%, and my chance to get subsequent rolls right at 95% (can't get better because of auto-fail on 1). Greater Grapple would give me another +2 (wasted) and a chance of getting 1/2 right of 99.75%. And a Wizard/Sorcerer's BAB will still go up slower than mine, so my chance of success still improves over time against squishy casters. (My chance of success will decrease over time at the same rate vs +1 BAB classes.)

Anyhow, I'd still like to know if a grappled opponent can cast somatic spells or not.

Re: Tuum Manos

- The wielder does not suffer the usual -4 penalty for attack rolls made against opponents while acting as the Primary Grappler

Are we talking about the -4 on the initial Grapple attempt for not being empty-handed, or the -4 to attack enemies other than my grapple victim?

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

Anyhow, I'd still like to know if a grappled opponent can cast somatic spells or not.

They can.

Re: Tuum ManosAre we talking about the -4 on the initial Grapple attempt for not being empty-handed, or the -4 to attack enemies other than my grapple victim?

the -4 to attack enemies other than my grapple victim

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Also: GAWD!!!! ARE WE DONE YET?!?! DO YOU HAVE MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT GRAPPLE?!? I SWEAR TO GOD!!! SAY GRAPPLE ONE MORE GODDAMN TIME!!! I'LL UP AND REMOVE ALL THE GRAPPLE FROM THIS BITCH!!! I'LL CUT YOUR FUCKING LIMBS OFF WITH THE NEXT TRAP I CAN DO THAT!!! WOULD YOU LIKE THAT?!? AN AMPUTEE CLERIC?!? TRY GRAPPLING SHIT NOW, FUCKER!!! DON'T MESS WITH ME!!! I'M THE MOTHER FUCKING DUNGEON MASTER!!!

nah j/k... I wouldn't do that. Go ahead... ask another question...

[Armando]

Re: D&D

Also: GAWD!!!! ARE WE DONE YET?!?! DO YOU HAVE MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT GRAPPLE?!? I SWEAR TO GOD!!! SAY GRAPPLE ONE MORE GODDAMN TIME!!!

I think I'm ready to make the new Grappling flow chart now. If you wanna take a look at those nifty items I posted a couple of pages back though, that'd just be dandy!

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

re-post them...

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and post this flow chart when you're done. I wants it.