Grappling

[Yygdrasil]

For your benefit, Armando... I'm going to detail out the full list of Grapple Rules as the stand in Pathfinder... with my own house adjustments (very minor).

[Armando]

Re: D&D

In exchange I will burn them into my mind so I never slow the game down when I have to wrestle a gnoll.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

The Grappled Condition: A grappled creature is restrained by another creature, trap or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a -4 penaly to DEX (NOT THEIR DEX MOD). A grappled creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat manuevers except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In additon, a grappled creature cannot make any action that requires 2 hands to perform. A grappled character who attepts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC10 + Grappler's CMB + Spell level) or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

The Pinned Condition: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take very few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additonal -4 to their AC on top of their -4 to DEX for being grappled. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC10 + pinners CMB + Spell level) or lose the spell. The effects of Pin and Grapple are treated seperately and do not stack.

CMB (Combat Manuever) Forumla: 1d20 + Base Attack Bonus + STR Mod + Special Size Modifier
CMD (Combat Manuever Defense) Formula: 10 + CMB + DEX Mod + Misc Modifiers
Misc Modifiers: Circumstance, Dodge, Insight, Luck, Morale or Sacred Modifiers that would apply to their AC also apply to their CMD. A Flatfooted character does not add their DEX Mod to their CMD.

Grapple Rules:

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options.

If you do not have "Improved Grapple", "Grab" or other similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from that foe.

Humanoid Creatures attempting a grapple without both hands free suffer a -4 penalty to their combat maneuver roll.

If successful, both you and the foe receive the "Grappled" condition.

Simple enough. You can't screw with that wording. But here's where the tricky stuff comes in.

If you successfully grapple a creature that is not directly adjacent to you, they are considered to be moved to a spot of your choosing that is adjacent to you.

Simply put... assume you're an ogre and you have a 10 foot reach. You grapple an opponent and move them to a spot adjacent to you. The spot they get moved to is up to you, but it must be a spot that is free. You cannot immediately pass them over a hazard, hole, pit, spike, other player or wall. If no such space is available... your grapple fails. Lets say for instance... you're in the middle of Cid, Fire and Mezlo with your back against a wall... you attempt to use your weapon to reach 10 feet and grapple a foe. Because there is no free space directly adjacent to you, your grapple automatically fails.

Although both creatures are considered to be under the effects of the grappled condition, you can, as the one who initiated the grapple, release the grapple at any time as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the foe.

As the Pathfinder rules state, a free action can only be taken on your turn. As such, you may only release a grapple on your turn.

If you choose not to release the grapple on your turn, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the grapple.

If on their turn, the target does not break the grapple, you as the primary grappler get a +5 circumstance bonus on all grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds.

The +5 bonus is applied to your CMB check to maintain a grapple.

Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of your standard action to maintain the grapple).

On a turn that you, as the primary grappler begin a round while grappling, you may perform certain grappling actions (assuming that you succeed in your check to maintain your grapple for the round). The maintaining of the grapple and the secondary grapple action consume your standard action for the round.

Move: You may move yourself and your grapple target at up to half your movement. At the end of your movement you may place the grappled in a space adjacent to you. If you attempt to place them in a hazardous area such as a pit or a wall of flames, the target receives a free attempt to break free from the grapple with a +4 circumstance bonus.

Will your movement provoke attack of opportunity against you? Yes. Will you suffer any penalty? Yes. What kind of penalty? You will lose your DEX bonus to AC.

A "Free Attempt" to break free from a grapple can be either their CMB vs the Grappler or an Escape Artist check with a DC equal to the grappler's CMD.

Damage: You may inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, Natural Attack, Attack made with Armor Spikes or with a light or 1-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or non-lethal.

According to pathfinder rules, you may perform one of these actions automatically when you successfully maintain a grapple against a foe. This means there will be no attack roll required. This only applies when attacking the foe you are currently grappling. Actions made against other enemies while you are grappling suffer a -2 penalty to hit.

For weapons or natural attacks with an added ability such as poison or stun, those effects are automatic when used by the grappler against the grappled.

Pin: You can give your opponent the "Pinned" condition. Despite pinning your opponent, you yourself still have the grappled condition and lose your DEX bonus to your AC.

Pinning does not stack with grapple. As such, in order to maintain the pin you will need to pick "Pin" as your standard grapple action each round. Or...

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned (or unconscious) you can use rope to tie them up. This works like the "Pin" effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20+ your CMB. The rope does not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the a foe, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a -10 penalty. If the DC to escape the ropes is greater than 20+ the targets CMB, the target cannot escape the bonds, even with a natural 20.

The -10 penalty applied to "Tie Up" while grappling as opposed to pinning your foe is due to the difficulty involved in the maneuver. Think of it like like a hog-tie.



Those are the rules as they apply to being the grappler. Now I'll explain the rules as they apply to being grappled.

If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (difficulty equal to your opponent's CMD). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you break the grapple you can choose to become the grappler and grapple the foe. Or instead of attempting to break free from the grapple, you can choose to take any action that requires only 1 hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or 1-handed weapon against any creature within your reach including the creature grappling you.

Actions taken while grappled are only limited to actions that require 1 or no hands to perform. Remember... you're grappled... so you cannot move unless you break free from the grapple first. Certain restrictions apply and I'll add those in later.

To Break a Grapple:

Make a CMB (grapple) check with the DC = to the Primary Grappler's CMD. If you succeed, the grapple is broken and both you and the primary grappler lose the grapple effect.

Note:

Not all modifiers can be applied to a break attempt. For instance the "Grab" ability imparts a +4 bonus to grapple attempts and a +4 to maintain a grapple. Improved Grapple however, provides a bonus to all grapple checks including those to break free from a grapple.

Additional Information:

Grab: If a creature with the special ability "Grab" hits it's target with the indicated attack (usually claw or bite), it deals normal damage and can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Grab only works on opponents at least 1 size category smaller than the grappler (unless otherwise noted).

Fun fact:

The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of it's body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses the latter option, it takes a -20 penalty on it's CMB check to maintain the grapple in the following round but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

Also:

Constrict: A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check.

[Armando]

Re: D&D

Will your movement provoke attack of opportunity against you? Yes. Will you suffer any penalty? Yes. What kind of penalty? You will lose your DEX bonus to AC.

This part raises some questions:
1) The grappled victim doesn't get attacks of opportunity against me; only other enemies do, right?
2) Does the enemy provoke attacks of opportunity from my allies if I move him?
3) Do I lose my DEX bonus to AC only when I provoke attacks of opportunity, or at all times that I'm grappling? If the latter, does the grappled victim lose his DEX bonus too? This one is incredibly important to clear up since any time someone is without DEX bonus he's susceptible to Sneak Attack, and by the original rules I'd need to pin someone before I can take away his DEX bonus.

[Yygdrasil]

Grappling Discussion

This part raises some questions:
1) The grappled victim doesn't get attacks of opportunity against me; only other enemies do, right?
2) Does the enemy provoke attacks of opportunity from my allies if I move him?
3) Do I lose my DEX bonus to AC only when I provoke attacks of opportunity, or at all times that I'm grappling? If the latter, does the grappled victim lose his DEX bonus too? This one is incredibly important to clear up since any time someone is without DEX bonus he's susceptible to Sneak Attack, and by the original rules I'd need to pin someone before I can take away his DEX bonus.

1. correct
2. Yes
3. At all time. Your mobility is subject to restrictions and thus you lose DEX bonus. And yes, the grappled loses his DEX bonus as well... except when applied to his CMD.

[cidbahamut]

Re: D&D

That is a very intimidating wall of text.

[Armando]

Re: D&D

That is a very intimidating wall of text.

That tends to happen when you try to write a flowchart.

3. At all time. Your mobility is subject to restrictions and thus you lose DEX bonus. And yes, the grappled loses his DEX bonus as well... except when applied to his CMD.

Most interesting. Simply grappling an enemy is enough for the Rogues to shank the hell out of him. So the main benefit of pinning an opponent is having someone else deliver a coup de grace then?

Lets say for instance... you're in the middle of Cid, Fire and Mezlo with your back against a wall... you attempt to use your weapon to reach 10 feet and grapple a foe. Because there is no free space directly adjacent to you, your grapple automatically fails.

Holy Jesus I can do that?!

If you could clear up the whole "grappling without two hands free" and how Tuum Manos changes that, that'd be dandy. Like I said, it's clear that you take a -4 penalty on the initial grapple attempt, but it never says if you take a penalty on the following rolls to keep the grapple going, or if the defender takes that same penalty when attempting to break free or reverse a grapple while he holds his own weapon.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

I'll have to clarify and edit Tuum Manos a little.

Allow me:

- - - Updated - - -

Tuum Manos
- Heavy Mace, 1d8 Damage, Crit Chance @ 20, Crit Multiplier x2, 15lbs
- The wielder does not suffer the usual -2 penalty for attack rolls and combat manuevers made while being grappled
- The wielder deals 1d4 damage to a foe when they successfully break free from a grapple (but not when reverse one)

[Armando]

Re: D&D

Ok, Tuum Manos' effects are clear now. Still need to know the rules of grappling without 2 hands free.

I also notice you changed the CMD formula so it grows with the enemy level and so AC bonuses apply to it. Interesting.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

So the main benefit of pinning an opponent is having someone else deliver a coup de grace then?

I suppose if your aim is to kill them, yes.

Holy Jesus I can do that?!

No. It was a bad example. Grapple checks can be made using weapons with innate grapple capabilities such as nets and spiked chains only.

If you could clear up the whole "grappling without two hands free" and how Tuum Manos changes that, that'd be dandy

Grapple checks can be made using 2 hands or just 1. Maintaining a grapple only requires 1. Making a grapple check using 2 hands suffers no penalties. Making a grapple check using only 1 hand suffers a -4 penalty to your CMB. Making a grapple check while wielding a 2-handed weapon or while b oth hands are occupied suffers a -10 penalty to your CMB.

- - - Updated - - -

I also notice you changed the CMD formula so it grows with the enemy level and so AC bonuses apply to it. Interesting.

I'm slick like that.

[Armando]

Re: D&D

Making a grapple check using only 1 hand suffers a -4 penalty to your CMB.

So ALL grapple checks made with 1 hand suffer the penalty? For example, maintaining the grapple one-handed takes the penalty, and so does reversing the grapple? What about freeing yourself from an enemy's grapple? I could be grappling an opponent that was holding a weapon.

Finally, this statement confused me:

According to pathfinder rules, you may perform one of these actions automatically when you successfully maintain a grapple against a foe. This means there will be no attack roll required. This only applies when attacking the foe you are currently grappling. Actions made against other enemies while you are grappling suffer a -4 penalty to hit.

You say -4 penalty here, but mention "the usual -2" in Tuum Manos' description. Does that mean the grappler is free to attack people other than his victim by taking a -4 penalty, but the victim can make attacks with only a -2 penalty?

Also, do your house rules still prevent people from casting spells with somatic (gesture) components while grappling?

EDIT: Does the new CMD formula apply to all combat maneuvers, or only for defending against a grapple?

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

So ALL grapple checks made with 1 hand suffer the penalty? For example, maintaining the grapple one-handed takes the penalty, and so does reversing the grapple? What about freeing yourself from an enemy's grapple? I could be grappling an opponent that was holding a weapon.

The penalty only applies to the initial grapple... not to continue a grapple in subsequent rounds or other instances. Those circumstances have their own set of rules.

Finally, this statement confused me:You say -4 penalty here, but mention "the usual -2" in Tuum Manos' description. Does that mean the grappler is free to attack people other than his victim by taking a -4 penalty, but the victim can make attacks with only a -2 penalty?

"The usual -2" should be changed to -4. That's my mistake. And yes, for you to attack someone other than the person being grappled, you suffer a -4 penalty while the grappled opponent only suffers a -2. After-all, your -4 is applied to the assumption that you need to maintain a grip and control over the grappled. Th grappled on the other hand, apart from being grappled, doesn't need to worry about keeping his grip on anything.

However... his range and available targets are directly under your control. You pick which direction he faces at the end of your round, every round. If you don't face him near anything, his only option is you... whether that means trying to break free or trying to hurt you.

Also, do your house rules still prevent people from casting spells with somatic (gesture) components while grappling?

Only spells that require more than one hand to cast, but a caster who takes the Still Spell feat would not need to worry about that either.

EDIT: Does the new CMD formula apply to all combat maneuvers, or only for defending against a grapple?

CMD is used exclusively for defensive maneuvers. If you are being grappled and you attempt to break free, your CMB would be used against the grappler's CMD to prevent you. Similarly, if you're being grappled, your CMD would be the only thing preventing the grappler from continuing his hold on you.

Escape from a grapple = your CMB vs their CMD
The enemies attempt to continue the grapple = Their CMB vs your CMD

[Armando]

Re: D&D

"The usual -2" should be changed to -4. That's my mistake. And yes, for you to attack someone other than the person being grappled, you suffer a -4 penalty while the grappled opponent only suffers a -2.

Ok, so that's a house rule - Pathfinder rules don't allow the grappler to attack other targets at all unless you release the opponent. What's the procedure for that then? Roll to maintain my grapple, succeed, then attack?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I'm getting out of Tuum Manos:
* Only the initial grapple attempt takes a -4 penalty because I don't have both hands free. Tuum Manos doesn't change that.
* If I try to attack someone other than the grappling victim, I'd take a -4 penalty to the attack roll; Tuum Manos removes this penalty.
* If I try to attack anyone while being grappled, I'd take a -2 penalty to the attack roll; Tuum Manos removes this penalty?

However... his range and available targets are directly under your control. You pick which direction he faces at the end of your round, every round. If you don't face him near anything, his only option is you... whether that means trying to break free or trying to hurt you.

To be clear: are you assuming I'm picking the Move action, or are you saying I can deal damage and still move him to a different adjacent square?

Escape from a grapple = your CMB vs their CMD
The enemies attempt to continue the grapple = Their CMB vs your CMD

What I meant to ask is if the new CMD formula you wrote will also be used for Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush, etc.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

Ok, so that's a house rule - Pathfinder rules don't allow the grappler to attack other targets at all unless you release the opponent. What's the procedure for that then? Roll to maintain my grapple, succeed, then attack?

At the start of the round, if you're grappling an opponent, you roll to maintain the grapple. You must do this unless you choose to release the grapple. If you succeed, you pick one of the standard actions. You either move, damage or pin. Damage would be an automatic hit, move is at half your move distance and pin follows pin rules.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I'm getting out of Tuum Manos:
* Only the initial grapple attempt takes a -4 penalty because I don't have both hands free. Tuum Manos doesn't change that.
* If I try to attack someone other than the grappling victim, I'd take a -4 penalty to the attack roll; Tuum Manos removes this penalty.
* If I try to attack anyone while being grappled, I'd take a -2 penalty to the attack roll; Tuum Manos removes this penalty?

I'm going to re-create Tuum Manos right now. I'm not satisfied with the stats I gave it. Right now I wouldn't even use it.

To be clear: are you assuming I'm picking the Move action, or are you saying I can deal damage and still move him to a different adjacent square?

At the end of your turn, whether you have chosen to move or not, you can end your turn by choosing a direction to face, which will subsequently effect the direction the grappled is facing.

What I meant to ask is if the new CMD formula you wrote will also be used for Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush, etc.

Yes.

[Armando]

Re: D&D

At the start of the round, if you're grappling an opponent, you roll to maintain the grapple. You must do this unless you choose to release the grapple. If you succeed, you pick one of the standard actions. You either move, damage or pin. Damage would be an automatic hit, move is at half your move distance and pin follows pin rules.

That's if I want to damage the grappling victim. But you said I could attack other targets as well by taking a -4 penalty on the attack roll. That's what I meant when I asked if the procedure is "roll for grapple, succeed, roll for attack."