Grappling

[Armando]

Re: D&D

I'm going to enlarge Armando so we can fire arrows into the mob and make it a pin cushion. Armando grapples and incapacitates > 3 arrows fly into the mob, 2 of them dealing sneak attack damage, one doing 2d8 damage. I think this will be a fine way to mow down our enemies...

And that, my magical friend, is why I bothered to pick up Improved Grapple at all, and why I'm taking Greater Grapple at level 7. Almost guarantees I can maintain a grapple (although they can still break out during their turn.)

[Mezlo]

Re: D&D

I'm going to enlarge Armando so we can fire arrows into the mob and make it a pin cushion. Armando grapples and incapacitates > 3 arrows fly into the mob, 2 of them dealing sneak attack damage, one doing 2d8 damage. I think this will be a fine way to mow down our enemies...

[Armando]

Re: D&D

So enemies can cast spells while grappled even if the spell has a Somatic component?

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

I've never seen the number of hands needed to cast a spell in the spell description. Where can i find that or can you please post it? I kind of just assumed the gesture only involved one hand.

Don't sweat it. I highly doubt it will ever matter.

[Armando]

Re: D&D

If armando has a foe grappled, and we took precise shot, so we don't get penalized for a foe being engaged in melee, what penalty does the enemy suffer since armando has him in the death lock? I see us turning mobs into pin cushions fast guys...

Effects on the enemy:
1) -4 Dexterity (-2 to Dexterity modifier.)
2) If his DEX mod is still positive, they lose their DEX bonus to AC. If it's negative, they still get penalized.
3) Rogues can Sneak Attack (because of #2).
4) Can't make attacks of opportunity. Can't attack behind him during his turn.
5) No casting spells that have somatic (hand gesture) components (Still Spell metamagic feat can bypass this.) Not in Yyg's game!
6) If #5 doesn't apply, casting a spell requires a Concentration check.

If I pin it (something I can attempt to do after a successful grapple):
7) Enemy takes an additional -4 AC
8) Enemy is considered helpless (can be tied up or coup de grace'd)

EDIT:

Where can i find that or can you please post it? I kind of just assumed the gesture only involved one hand.

By Pathfinder rules, only one hand is required (that's one of the reasons I don't have a shield even though I still have one-handed weapons.) Good catch, Yyg will have to clear that up.

[Mezlo]

Grappling Discussion

Only spells that require more than one hand to cast, but a caster who takes the Still Spell feat would not need to worry about that either.

I've never seen the number of hands needed to cast a spell in the spell description. Where can i find that or can you please post it? I kind of just assumed the gesture only involved one hand.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

Tuum Manos
- Heavy Mace, 1d8 Damage, Crit Chance @ 20, Crit Multiplier x2, 15lbs
- The wielder does not suffer the usual -4 penalty for attack rolls made against opponents while acting as the Primary Grappler
- The wielder gains a +2 bonus to avoid being grappled or break free from a grapple

Adjusted. So shall it be.

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like I've lost some nerd cred.

You were never on my level to begin with. To become a DM is to learn the true nature of nerdiness.

[cidbahamut]

Re: D&D

I stopped trying to follow all of that grappling stuff. I feel like I've lost some nerd cred.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

Yes. To attack a target who is not your grapple target, you must still roll to attack them. On such an attack, you would take a -4 penalty.

- - - Updated - - -

this. i'm glad i wont be doing any grappling, I'll just be blowing shit up. actually, now i have a question of my own for all of us ranged attack peeps. If armando has a foe grappled, and we took precise shot, so we don't get penalized for a foe being engaged in melee, what penalty does the enemy suffer since armando has him in the death lock? I see us turning mobs into pin cushions fast guys...

Enemies being grappled lose their DEX bonus to AC. Other than that. Nothing. Pinned is a different story.

[Mezlo]

Re: D&D

That is a very intimidating wall of text.

this. i'm glad i wont be doing any grappling, I'll just be blowing shit up. actually, now i have a question of my own for all of us ranged attack peeps. If armando has a foe grappled, and we took precise shot, so we don't get penalized for a foe being engaged in melee, what penalty does the enemy suffer since armando has him in the death lock? I see us turning mobs into pin cushions fast guys...

[Armando]

Re: D&D

At the start of the round, if you're grappling an opponent, you roll to maintain the grapple. You must do this unless you choose to release the grapple. If you succeed, you pick one of the standard actions. You either move, damage or pin. Damage would be an automatic hit, move is at half your move distance and pin follows pin rules.

That's if I want to damage the grappling victim. But you said I could attack other targets as well by taking a -4 penalty on the attack roll. That's what I meant when I asked if the procedure is "roll for grapple, succeed, roll for attack."

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

Ok, so that's a house rule - Pathfinder rules don't allow the grappler to attack other targets at all unless you release the opponent. What's the procedure for that then? Roll to maintain my grapple, succeed, then attack?

At the start of the round, if you're grappling an opponent, you roll to maintain the grapple. You must do this unless you choose to release the grapple. If you succeed, you pick one of the standard actions. You either move, damage or pin. Damage would be an automatic hit, move is at half your move distance and pin follows pin rules.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I'm getting out of Tuum Manos:
* Only the initial grapple attempt takes a -4 penalty because I don't have both hands free. Tuum Manos doesn't change that.
* If I try to attack someone other than the grappling victim, I'd take a -4 penalty to the attack roll; Tuum Manos removes this penalty.
* If I try to attack anyone while being grappled, I'd take a -2 penalty to the attack roll; Tuum Manos removes this penalty?

I'm going to re-create Tuum Manos right now. I'm not satisfied with the stats I gave it. Right now I wouldn't even use it.

To be clear: are you assuming I'm picking the Move action, or are you saying I can deal damage and still move him to a different adjacent square?

At the end of your turn, whether you have chosen to move or not, you can end your turn by choosing a direction to face, which will subsequently effect the direction the grappled is facing.

What I meant to ask is if the new CMD formula you wrote will also be used for Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush, etc.

Yes.

[Armando]

Re: D&D

"The usual -2" should be changed to -4. That's my mistake. And yes, for you to attack someone other than the person being grappled, you suffer a -4 penalty while the grappled opponent only suffers a -2.

Ok, so that's a house rule - Pathfinder rules don't allow the grappler to attack other targets at all unless you release the opponent. What's the procedure for that then? Roll to maintain my grapple, succeed, then attack?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I'm getting out of Tuum Manos:
* Only the initial grapple attempt takes a -4 penalty because I don't have both hands free. Tuum Manos doesn't change that.
* If I try to attack someone other than the grappling victim, I'd take a -4 penalty to the attack roll; Tuum Manos removes this penalty.
* If I try to attack anyone while being grappled, I'd take a -2 penalty to the attack roll; Tuum Manos removes this penalty?

However... his range and available targets are directly under your control. You pick which direction he faces at the end of your round, every round. If you don't face him near anything, his only option is you... whether that means trying to break free or trying to hurt you.

To be clear: are you assuming I'm picking the Move action, or are you saying I can deal damage and still move him to a different adjacent square?

Escape from a grapple = your CMB vs their CMD
The enemies attempt to continue the grapple = Their CMB vs your CMD

What I meant to ask is if the new CMD formula you wrote will also be used for Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush, etc.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

So ALL grapple checks made with 1 hand suffer the penalty? For example, maintaining the grapple one-handed takes the penalty, and so does reversing the grapple? What about freeing yourself from an enemy's grapple? I could be grappling an opponent that was holding a weapon.

The penalty only applies to the initial grapple... not to continue a grapple in subsequent rounds or other instances. Those circumstances have their own set of rules.

Finally, this statement confused me:You say -4 penalty here, but mention "the usual -2" in Tuum Manos' description. Does that mean the grappler is free to attack people other than his victim by taking a -4 penalty, but the victim can make attacks with only a -2 penalty?

"The usual -2" should be changed to -4. That's my mistake. And yes, for you to attack someone other than the person being grappled, you suffer a -4 penalty while the grappled opponent only suffers a -2. After-all, your -4 is applied to the assumption that you need to maintain a grip and control over the grappled. Th grappled on the other hand, apart from being grappled, doesn't need to worry about keeping his grip on anything.

However... his range and available targets are directly under your control. You pick which direction he faces at the end of your round, every round. If you don't face him near anything, his only option is you... whether that means trying to break free or trying to hurt you.

Also, do your house rules still prevent people from casting spells with somatic (gesture) components while grappling?

Only spells that require more than one hand to cast, but a caster who takes the Still Spell feat would not need to worry about that either.

EDIT: Does the new CMD formula apply to all combat maneuvers, or only for defending against a grapple?

CMD is used exclusively for defensive maneuvers. If you are being grappled and you attempt to break free, your CMB would be used against the grappler's CMD to prevent you. Similarly, if you're being grappled, your CMD would be the only thing preventing the grappler from continuing his hold on you.

Escape from a grapple = your CMB vs their CMD
The enemies attempt to continue the grapple = Their CMB vs your CMD

[Armando]

Re: D&D

Making a grapple check using only 1 hand suffers a -4 penalty to your CMB.

So ALL grapple checks made with 1 hand suffer the penalty? For example, maintaining the grapple one-handed takes the penalty, and so does reversing the grapple? What about freeing yourself from an enemy's grapple? I could be grappling an opponent that was holding a weapon.

Finally, this statement confused me:

According to pathfinder rules, you may perform one of these actions automatically when you successfully maintain a grapple against a foe. This means there will be no attack roll required. This only applies when attacking the foe you are currently grappling. Actions made against other enemies while you are grappling suffer a -4 penalty to hit.

You say -4 penalty here, but mention "the usual -2" in Tuum Manos' description. Does that mean the grappler is free to attack people other than his victim by taking a -4 penalty, but the victim can make attacks with only a -2 penalty?

Also, do your house rules still prevent people from casting spells with somatic (gesture) components while grappling?

EDIT: Does the new CMD formula apply to all combat maneuvers, or only for defending against a grapple?