General Discussion

[Mezlo]

Re: General Discussion

Yeah, that's similar to my progression and why I'm taking a level in fighter at level 9. I want Manyshot and Bulls Eye Shot, but i need a BAB of 6 for one of those, plus an extra feat, so by taking a level in fighter, I get 2 feats at level 9.

[Firewind]

Re: General Discussion

I'm 4 Cleric/2 Fighter right now. I want to get Greater Grapple at level 7, but it requires 6 BAB; I'm sitting at 5 and won't get a +1 at Cleric level 5. So I need to take a level in another class that'll get me 1 BAB. Fighters don't get much at level 3 (-1 ACP basically). Barbarian is out of the question because of my alignment. That leaves Paladin and Ranger, and Ranger offers me much more:
* +2 Reflex save. Only Rogues, Bards, Monks and Rangers have good Reflex saves growths, so this is kind of a big deal. Combined with my +2 saves against spells (Dwarf trait), it puts me at +5 Reflex Save against spells, which is the same the Rogues have at level 6.
* Favored Enemy to further increase my attack rolls and damage rolls against Goblinoids.
* 6 Skill points instead of my usual 2.
* Stealth as a Class skill, for whatever that's worth.

I also get another +2 Fort save, which would bring me to +9 base, +12 with my CON factored in, and +14 against spells. I'll be able to clear any DC 16 Fort Save against spells 95% of the time.

This is the last level I'm taking in a non-Cleric class, and I'm only doing it because if I don't, my entire Grappling Feat tree will be delayed 2 levels and I'll have to pick some filler feat.

On the other hand, it pains me to delay my access to Level 3 spells even more. Decisions, decisions...

Personally I would go for the Cleric Level to get 3rd Level spells and go for the Ranger level next. If you are to pick between more Divine Spellcaster levels and a splash into another class, I would go for spellcaster levels any day of the week.

Also stuff to consider for a level in Paladin:

• Smite Evil 1/day. Since you're a Cleric you should have a good Charisma modifier so you can make use of this
• Detect Evil. This has great utility in being sonar for Evil beings that you can't see. Invisible Goblin Spellcaster? It will glow like a Christmas Tree under this spell and you can point it out or realise there's an Invisible guy where you're looking.
• +2 Fort and +2 Will. Reflex is good but a lot of the "Save or Die" effects target Fort or Will. A lot of Domination effects also require a Will save to resist. Plus you need Evasion to truly benefit from a good Reflex save. Everyone benefits from a good Fort and Will save. A poor Reflex save can be patched up with things like Resist Energy, Protection from Alignment, Rope Trick abuse and Spell Resistance since most spells that force a Reflex save are Evocation and direct damage spells which are kind of fucked over by the above things.
• Stealth really isn't very useful for someone that wears armour that forces a Skill Penalty Check
• Favoured Enemy should really be a Roleplay thing. I know Dwarves and Goblins hate each other and it makes sense but I just wanted to raise this issue on the off chance you didn't consider it.
• A second level in Paladin lets you add your Cha mod to your saves (this does stack with buffs from other sources)

I would also consider another Fighter level, it gives the same BaB and will more than likely give you access to a Bonus Feat and most Battle Clerics take about 4 Fighter levels anyway for the BaB and Bonus Feats.

Personally I would just take the Cleric level but it is your Character. I personally think that slowing down Spell Progression is a massive sacrifice (which is why I personally dislike the "No Prestige until 11th Level thing) but like I said, your choice.

- - - Updated - - -

Spells you will get access to if you take the Cleric level:

• Bestow Curse - This is kind of crazy in all of the things it can do. Sure it only targets one guy but that one guy is pretty much going to die if you lower Dex or lower his Saves
• Blindness/Deafness - We have two Rogues, do the math. Also Deafening a Spellcaster is as good as silencing them.
• Dispel Magic - Access to this would have been an "I Win" button vs Tusk
• Protection from Energy - You know how Mezlo loves Fireball? Well this means we won't have to worry about Friendly Fire as much. Plus any other fireballs or stuff like Chain Lightning and making the Reflex Saves because we're mitigating a tun of damage. This spell is as vital as packing Barspells if you even suspect an enemy spellcaster is ahead.
• Resist Energy - Weaker, AoE version of the above
• Symbol of Healing - Needs Yyg approval but it is basically a group effect that heals and also harms undead. Seriously worth considering if we do encounter a lot or undead or someone can Dispel it to prevent enemies from using it
• Wrathful Mantle - Needs Yyg approval. Basically it gives a resistance bonus of +1 per 4 caster levels to all Saves plus the wearer can end the effect to cause an explosio nthat deals 2d8 force damage to everything around it.

Plus we get access to Cure Serious Wounds via Spontaneous Casting, a spell we badly need since nobody else can use any sort of healing spell.

[Armando]

Re: General Discussion

Smite Evil 1/day. Since you're a Cleric you should have a good Charisma modifier so you can make use of this

My CHA mod is -1. It's the price I paid for having 2 in STR and DEX and 3 in CON and WIS. Favored Enemy would be more useful, at least for the duration of this story arc, because it's +2 attack rolls/damage against ALL goblins we fight.

Detect Evil. This has great utility in being sonar for Evil beings that you can't see. Invisible Goblin Spellcaster? It will glow like a Christmas Tree under this spell and you can point it out or realise there's an Invisible guy where you're looking.

Agreed. However, it's not mission-critical since we have the Hand of Glory.

+2 Fort and +2 Will. Reflex is good but a lot of the "Save or Die" effects target Fort or Will. A lot of Domination effects also require a Will save to resist. Plus you need Evasion to truly benefit from a good Reflex save. Everyone benefits from a good Fort and Will save. A poor Reflex save can be patched up with things like Resist Energy, Protection from Alignment, Rope Trick abuse and Spell Resistance since most spells that force a Reflex save are Evocation and direct damage spells which are kind of fucked over by the above things.

As a Cleric I have a good Fort and Will growths and my CON and WIS mods are both 3. I also have +2 to all saves against spells just for being a Dwarf. I'm pretty sure I have the best Fort and Will saves in the party. Also, Protection From Evil grants us a second roll to suppress mind-altering affects for the duration of the buff if the first save roll fails. My Fort save in particular is through the roof because of multiclassing with Fighter, and Ranger provides the same +2 Fort Save that Paladin would.

Stealth really isn't very useful for someone that wears armour that forces a Skill Penalty Check

Granted. This is not something I plan on using actively or investing in, but you never know what strange or uncomfortable situation Yyg will put us in some day. It's just icing on the cake.

Favoured Enemy should really be a Roleplay thing. I know Dwarves and Goblins hate each other and it makes sense but I just wanted to raise this issue on the off chance you didn't consider it.

Yeah, that's why I'm choosing goblinoids and not undead.

A second level in Paladin lets you add your Cha mod to your saves (this does stack with buffs from other sources)

Like I said, my CHA mod is negative and I couldn't possibly afford to invest one more level in a non-Cleric class anyway.

I would also consider another Fighter level, it gives the same BaB and will more than likely give you access to a Bonus Feat and most Battle Clerics take about 4 Fighter levels anyway for the BaB and Bonus Feats.

No Bonus Feat on level 3 sadly, and like I said I can't afford to go up to 4.

I agree that level 3 spells are a big deal, but also consider that the choice is delay level 3 spells for 1 level or delay my feat chain for 2 levels. We'll find out how badly we need those level 3 spells on the next session I suppose.

EDIT:

Bestow Curse - This is kind of crazy in all of the things it can do. Sure it only targets one guy but that one guy is pretty much going to die if you lower Dex or lower his Saves

In my opinion, Hold Person is more powerful since it allows for instant Coup de Grace, works at a range, can drop flying monsters and uses up a lower level spell slot. If I need to get close to something to cripple it, I may as well go for the grapple.

Dispel Magic - Access to this would have been an "I Win" button vs Tusk
Protection from Energy - You know how Mezlo loves Fireball? Well this means we won't have to worry about Friendly Fire as much. Plus any other fireballs or stuff like Chain Lightning and making the Reflex Saves because we're mitigating a tun of damage. This spell is as vital as packing Barspells if you even suspect an enemy spellcaster is ahead.
Resist Energy - Weaker, AoE version of the above

Agreed; but Mezlo has access to all these spells. He's also more likely to be able to use them, since I may have to burn them for healing.

EDIT2: Also, regarding Mezlo's comment on my "useless" Detect Thoughts spell: It was a Dominion spell, so I'm not allowed to burn it for heals and it's more or less non-optional to bring. I feel it did have some value, since it allowed me to know that Tusk would continue to attack me instead of ignoring me if I chose Total Defense, which disallows attacks of opportunity so he could very easily get around me. It also let us know he had no aces up his sleeve.

[Mezlo]

Re: General Discussion

I feel it did have some value, since it allowed me to know that Tusk would continue to attack me instead of ignoring me if I chose Total Defense, which disallows attacks of opportunity so he could very easily get around me. It also let us know he had no aces up his sleeve.

It let you know the boss mob would attack you? Go figure... And he did have an ace up his sleeve your spell didn't help us with, remember the protection from arrows spell? Just sayin...

[Armando]

Re: General Discussion

It let you know the boss mob would attack you? Go figure...

Total Defense means he can walk away from me at any time and go for someone squishier because I don't get attacks of opportunity and my AC shoots up 4 points. He had the INT score figure that out, and could've easily walked over to you if he had chosen to. He didn't do so because that's how Yyg designed his AI, I just happened to be the first one to aggro him; but acting on that knowledge would be metagaming.

And he did have an ace up his sleeve your spell didn't help us with, remember the protection from arrows spell? Just sayin...

Except you already figured that one out without my help. And if the armor had any weakness, the spell might have revealed it.

You really don't see value in a spell that lets me read the enemy's thoughts? I only wasted 1 combat turn on it since it took him 2 turns to get to me, and like I said, I was more or less obligated to take the spell and couldn't sacrifice it for a heal. The only alternative was Remove Disease. I don't trust Yyg to keep the encounters and boss enemies trivially simple. He already threw us a curve ball with Tusk and they're only going to get trickier.

[Firewind]

Re: General Discussion

Quick note: Hold Person only works on Humanoids in Pathfinder. Just something to keep in mind for if we are prepping spells but don't know what we will be fighting.

Mez: The spell wasn't Protection from Arrows. Protection from Arrows gives damage reduction to projectile attacks, not an AC bonus to projectile attacks. My guess is that it was something Yyg home brewed purely for the boss fight.

Also don't underestimate the value of non-combat spells. A Fireball isn't going to be much use to anyone if we are not seeing combat for a while. And even in combat it is very useful to know what the other side knows. Are reinforcements coming? Do they have any traps or tricks for us? Are we walking into an ambush? Are the enemy willing to retreat or surrender (ending the fight more quickly)? Did that guard detect the Rogues sneaking around?

There's also countless ways to make use of Detect Thoughts out of combat. The usefulness of spells like Detect Thoughts is only limited by your imagination and creativity.

[Armando]

Re: General Discussion

I just noticed Protection From Evil and its Communal version are available to Wizards. If Firewind or Mezlo could prepare it I think it'd help us not get our asses kicked. Not gonna force either of you into it, but it helps take the load off of me since every non-Dominion spell I cast is one less heal for the party.

[Firewind]

Re: General Discussion

I don't think we should be saying we should always be taking "X, Y and Z" for spell selections. Obviously there are spells that will generally be useful to have but we will want to gain some kind of intel on what we will be up against before preparing spells. Protection from Evil won't do us much good is we're up against a large group of beasts or and Fireball will do nothing for us if we're say at some kind of social event for example.

I mean I could prepare a ton of spells perfect for taking on melee fighters but then if we end up against a bunch of spellcasters then the spells will be useless. It is one of the reasons why I made the post in Important Notes (which fittingly enough was ignored because nobody answered any of my questions). One of this things that has been driving me crazy in the campaign is the insistence of skipping all Roleplay to get to the combat, which means we know nothing of what we are fighting, which means that we have no idea what spells we should be preparing, which means we go in underprepared and will spells that aren't going to be that useful for the situation. I was actually prevented from taking part in the Roleplay entirely the last time we were in town because people ignored my character when I had her ask "Wait I want to ask the Council some questions" after she left the temple. Actually I was talked over by people insisting we get right to the combat but it's the same difference at the end of the day.

[Armando]

Re: General Discussion

I don't think we should be saying we should always be taking "X, Y and Z" for spell selections.

Agreed. I don't think we're done with Goblins/Evil creatures though; we still haven't dealt with The Emissary. Also, the number of wild/neutral creatures we've fought VS the number of evil humanoids has been very, very low. I think it's a pretty safe bet of a spell for now, especially since it's good against both melee (+2 AC) and casters (+2 to saves).

Just use your best judgement. If you don't think we need it, or don't have the spell slots to spare, leave it. I just wanted to put it out there because I've noticed I seldom get to cast the spells I've prepared.

[cidbahamut]

Re: General Discussion

It is one of the reasons why I made the post in Important Notes (which fittingly enough was ignored because nobody answered any of my questions).

I ignored it because it should have been posted here in the discussion thread and I didn't want to have said discussion spread all over the scheduling thread.

One of this things that has been driving me crazy in the campaign is the insistence of skipping all Roleplay to get to the combat, which means we know nothing of what we are fighting, which means that we have no idea what spells we should be preparing, which means we go in underprepared and will spells that aren't going to be that useful for the situation.

Agreed, lately the sessions have felt a tad combat heavy(being in a siege and all), but it'd be nice to have some opportunities to gather intel before making an assault occasionally. Or just being able to kick back and relax in a tavern.

[Firewind]

Re: General Discussion

It was Adam/Lyulf that did most of the rushing things and constantly talking over others, I admit it's not as bad now but it does still get pretty bad at times when everyone is trying to talk and is being too stubborn to let someone else actually speak. Funnily enough the one most excited about combat is also the one that actually tries to move combat along (Mezlo).

I actually wouldn't mind seeing the timer system returned with an added "If you talk through someone else's turn you lose your turn and get the hesitation debuff and the guy who would have missed his turn because of you gets a fresh 30 seconds" rule (it will probably save Mezlo's voice when he has to yell whose turn it really is too)

I was mostly frustrated at having to wait until someone actually finds the post, reads it and gets the time to answer it to get the answer to some simple "yes or no" questions that could have been handled during the session. There have been points in the Campaign where I have wanted to ask questions but the rest of the party has been pretty much telling me "Too late we're moving on" even though I got to say very little. The reason why I often say very little in conversations is because I'm not given the chance to half of the time, and I'm admittedly not that bothered about taking spotlight time. Basically it's not the lack of spotlight time that bothers me at all, I play a skill-bitch class after all, but a bit of consideration that I might want to ask some questions or contribute to an in character discussion would be really nice.

[cidbahamut]

Re: General Discussion

I think some of it might be the time lag. We've got an eight hour difference in timezones across the whole party and there's often a delay between when something is said and when it comes across on the other end, which leads to more talking over other people than would normally happen. That said, we are all pretty bad about talking over each other.

[Firewind]

Re: General Discussion

Oh I agree on that point, it does get bad when alcohol is involved too

[Armando]

Re: General Discussion

I think another part of the problem is that we often start later than scheduled, so there's some pressure to get more done in the time that we have left. That aside, I'm not against RPing, I've just been kind of partially or fully on the few sessions that were RP-centric. I'm also not against the 30 second rule.

[Firewind]

Re: General Discussion

Are we on for this saturday?