General Discussion

[Armando]

Re: D&D

(assuming it even has balls)

Maybe it has a cloaca?

P.S. I'd still love an answer to my grappling/flanking/sneak attack quandaries. Don't really care what rules we use, I just want to know what the rules are.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

The rules of flanking say you're flanking an opponent if an ally on the opposite side of the opponent threatens it. The definition of a threatened square is one into which you can make a melee attack. As the person controlling the grapple, if I don't release the grapple (free action), I MUST continue to grapple. Since I can only release the grapple during my turn, I can't make a melee attack into the enemy's square during Lily's turn. Therefore, I don't threaten the enemy, and Lily is not flanking, so no Sneak Attack. Do you agree with the rules as written?

On the other hand, as the person being grappled, Enemy1 IS free to attack into adjacent spaces assuming the attack only requires one hand. So although he can't make attacks of opportunity (part of the definition of being grappled), he CAN attack and DOES threaten. Therefore, Enemy2 is flanking Lily. Likewise, if Enemy1 were to make a roll during his turn and reverse the grapple, I'd be free to make one-handed attacks against him and Lily would flank and thus Sneak Attack. Do you agree?

From now on, I'll be following the book's ruling regarding grapples as written above.

[Firewind]

Re: D&D

I need to figure out what feat I'm taking then. There's way too many to choose from but I've got it narrowed down to four.

Tougness: Pretty useful, but I'm doing ok on HP and can take it at any point really.
Fleet: Running away faster seems super useful
Mobility: Moving more freely through the battlefield Dodging attack of opportunity seems handy
Power Attack: Useful, but I might not get much use out of it for a while yet due to low Base Attack Bonus. Probably going to take it eventually.

I'd be interested in getting some input from you all before I choose one.

As long as you keep your acrobatics topped up to dodge AoO's Mobility can come later. Rogues tend to have a good enough Acrobatics score to skip Mobility but it is always nice for insurance. Toughness is always a good pick no matter the class really.

More great Rogue Feats:

General

Dodge: It's great for everyone and it opens up Mobility
Combat Reflexes: If you are a melee rogue this is a must. It basically means that as long as you have a Dex Bonus of at least +3, you're going to get AoOs using all of your attacks at your highest bonus. Even though Yyg doesn't allow Sneak Attacks on AoOs, this is still a sexy feat and you opens up a TON of other great feats like Improved Feint.
Defensive Combat Training: Lets you add your HD to CMD. Who needs Stand Up when you're almost impossible to trip anyway?
Great Fortitude/Iron Will: Rogue Fort and Will saves suck, these and the "Improved..." versions are a nice way to bump them up
Improved Initiative: More initiative is ALWAYS good. Even if you end up in a case where going first is a problem, you can still delay your turn and put yourself later in the list. If you top the list and find out that going first will mean you will get killed then it's no problem since you can slot your turn EXACTLY where it is needed. A great feat for any class IMO.

Two Weapon (Dex) Rogue

Get the Two Weapon Fighting feat and upgrade them when you can. Get Weapon Focus (Shortsword) and Weapon Finesse. Great Two Weapon Fighting isn't that good for a Rogue since your BAB is too low for the final off hand attack to hit very often.

Brute (Strength) Rogue

Get Power Attack and Weapon Focus for your chosen weapon. Shatter Defences, Cleave, and Spring Attack are all nice picks too.

Archer Rogue

Just grab your ranged feats and build the Rogue like a Ranger with more skills, Sneak Attack and Rogue Talents.

Skill Monkey Rogue

Basically grab your skill focus feats and also bonus talent feats. The feat that boosts reflex is nice to have too.

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And to be fair I usually ask where a monster's attention is as it is difficult to get into a situation where an enemy is flat footed at range but, an enemy being completely unaware as to where your arrow/bolt is coming from would be one of them

[Armando]

Re: D&D

As long as you keep your acrobatics topped up to dodge AoO's Mobility can come later. Rogues tend to have a good enough Acrobatics score to skip Mobility but it is always nice for insurance.

Wow, I didn't know you could do that with Acrobatics. That's nuts. I just found another feat that might interest you then:

Disorienting Maneuver

Your erratic movements disorient your opponent.

Prerequisites: Dodge, Acrobatics 5 ranks.

Benefit: If you successfully use Acrobatics to tumble through an opponent’s space, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on attack rolls against that opponent until the start of your next turn. If you choose to make a trip attempt against that opponent, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on your combat maneuver check. This bonus on trip also lasts until the start of your next turn.

Also, Defensive Combat Training doesn't let you *add* your Hit Dice to your CMD, it lets you replace your BAB with your Hit Dice. It'd be way more useful for Mezlo, if he wanted to take it, since a Wizard's BAB is terrible.

EDIT: Good news, looking over my spell list I have a Level 1 long range spell that's just straight-up "become shaken" (assuming they fail their Will save.) It even lasts for 1 min/caster level. Just let me know when you take those feats.

EDIT2: I also just found this:

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting against a non-humanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Feinting as a Move Action

With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action.

Basically you can use Bluff against humanoids to make a melee Sneak Attack before the end of your next turn.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

About saturday: the wifes schedule is 10am-4:00pm EST. Unless you guys are all ok with an 11amunworthy EST start, well have to postpone. Im ok with it... but its up to you all.

[cidbahamut]

Re: D&D

Well I'm clearly ok with it, living on the east coast and all.

[Armando]

Re: D&D

I'm fine with 11 AM. In fact, I prefer it. None of my RL friends are doing stuff that early in the day, unlike 6-8 PM where eventually people do start calling to say "Hey, I know we didn't make plans but we're totally doing X and Y right now, come on over."

[Mezlo]

Re: D&D

I'm cool with it. I'll just have to start drinking beer at 8am.

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I know fire's cool with it. All he does anyway all day is go outside on his lawn, have tea and crumpets, and get sun burned/tanned.

[Armando]

Re: D&D

We should start abbreviating "tea and crumpets" as "trumpets" from now on.

[Taskmage]

Re: D&D

"trumpets"

[Armando]

Re: D&D

I just found out you can mix class archetypes as long as the changes don't conflict. That's so cool!

[Firewind]

Re: D&D

About saturday: the wifes schedule is 10am-4:00pm EST. Unless you guys are all ok with an 11amunworthy EST start, well have to postpone. Im ok with it... but its up to you all.

So that would be past 1600 my time...

Fine for me, it just means I'll have a big lunch or a late dinner on Saturday and let my family know I'm gaming this week too so they don't disturb me unless it's important.

If something comes up I'll let you all know, my family is a pain for springing things on me at the last minute.

Also, Defensive Combat Training doesn't let you *add* your Hit Dice to your CMD, it lets you replace your BAB with your Hit Dice. It'd be way more useful for Mezlo, if he wanted to take it, since a Wizard's BAB is terrible.

EDIT: Good news, looking over my spell list I have a Level 1 long range spell that's just straight-up "become shaken" (assuming they fail their Will save.) It even lasts for 1 min/caster level. Just let me know when you take those feats.

It's useful for everyone that doesn't have the full BAB. Fighters, Rangers, Paladins all get a full +1 BAB per level so have no use for the feat unless they multiclass into a class with a lower BAB.

There are 3 tiers of BAB progression:

1/2 BAB: Sorc, Wizard (Example: a 10th Level Sorc has a BAB of +5 but a HD of 10)
3/4 BAB: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Rogue (Example: a 10th Level Rogue has a BAB of +7/+2 but a HD of 10)
1 BAB: Fighters, Rangers, Paladins (Example: a 10th level Ranger has a BAB of (+10/+5 and a HD of 10)

So if you go pure Rogue, you still get the full benefits of Defensive Combat Training as your HD will always be higher than your BAB.

At the same time a 1Fighter/2Rogue would benefit from it because it's BAB will be slightly less than a Fighter's BAB.

A 3rd Level Fighter would have a BAB of 3
3rd Level Fighter/Rogue would only have a BAB of +2 but a HD of 3

Wow, I didn't know you could do that with Acrobatics. That's nuts. I just found another feat that might interest you then

Acrobatics was bundled together with Tumble, Balance and Jump in Pathfinder. The reason why we haven't been declaring Acrobatics checks is simply because at this level, we're more likely to dodge an attack by just relying on AC and you can ONLY do it in Light Armour

If you move at full speed through a threatened square the DC is 10 + Enemy's CMD +2 for each other threatened square you move through, which is a tough thing to beat at this level.

If you move at half speed you are just rolling against your opponent's CMD +2 for each other threatened square you move through.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: D&D

Its settled. We finish the den saturday at 11am EST

[Armando]

Re: D&D

So if you go pure Rogue, you still get the full benefits of Defensive Combat Training as your HD will always be higher than your BAB.

That's true, I was thinking more in the short term and didn't make it clear. From levels 1-4 you're only 1 BAB point behind, 5-8 then 2 points behind. Since CMD takes both STR and DEX into account, you two make up for that lost point with the +4 and +5 bonuses you have across both stats. I wouldn't take Defensive Combat Training any earlier than Lv5, and I'd still wait 'til 9 if you have other good feats competing with it.

[Firewind]

Re: D&D

Oh of course, you see the effects from taking it late and early on, Dodge is going to be far more useful because +1AC is huge at low levels. I was just noting why combat classes would benefit from it that's all.