XB1 3 Million Units Sold

[Icemage]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

Commander Keen kicks every indie game to come out in the last decade in the teeth.

Mutant Mudds and Super Meat Boy would like to have a word. I love me some Commander Keen, but it's blatantly not a better game than some of the indie games that have come out in the past few years in the same genre. Game design has evolved and improved over the years, and the newer games benefit from that.

If you can't see that, then you just value nostalgia over quality. *shrug*

We need to cut the fat from this industry and that means letting some of the big players crash and burn while we ruthlessly castigate shitty indie developers for putting out shitty indie games. Not everyone who can beg for kickstarter money on the internet is up to the task of developing a game and we need to stop telling people that it's ok.

Some people just want to watch the world burn.

How about we just let people buy what they want and let the chips fall where they may? Kickstarter isn't always a grand experiment, but some of the projects coming out of it have real promise (Project CARS, Wasteland 2, Shovel Knight). Other projects, not so much (CLANG). In the grand scheme of things, you could barely fund a single AAA game with all of the money given to every Kickstarter video game project combined, so I hardly see where all this mock horror is stemming from.


Icemage

[cidbahamut]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

The onus is on the backers to not be stupid. A fool and his money...

You and I both know that people are stupid and numerous.

- - - Updated - - -

Mutant Mudds and Super Meat Boy would like to have a word. I love me some Commander Keen, but it's blatantly not a better game than some of the indie games that have come out in the past few years in the same genre. Game design has evolved and improved over the years, and the newer games benefit from that.

Fine, I made a sweeping generalization and you came up with a single title that could arguably refute it. Super Meatboy is one of the few indie games I've played that's worth a damn. The majority are rubbish.

And yes I do want to watch the world burn.

[Icemage]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

Fine, I made a sweeping generalization and you came up with a single title that could arguably refute it. Super Meatboy is one of the few indie games I've played that's worth a damn. The majority are rubbish.

And yes I do want to watch the world burn.

If you think Super Meat Boy is the only good indie game out there, you haven't really made an effort. Here's a clue: most games are mediocre or worse. An even larger portion of indie games are mediocre or worse because they have less manpower and resources. Even so, there's plenty of good stuff out there, depending on what you're looking for in a game.

The same was true for shareware back in the day. 99% of shareware was absolute garbage and borderline unplayable. Commander Keen was one of the rare games that was shareware and actually playable - and also one of the rare ones to make enough money to spawn sequels. Even with the truckloads of terrible shareware, though, there were some good games that rose to the top (Duke Nukem and Doom come to mind, but also odd stuff like Scorched Earth).

Even though the ratios haven't really changed much of garbage to gold, I've been gaming for a long, long time, and if I turn off the lens of my own gaming preferences, the best games of today are simply hands down superior to their older counterparts, on every platform and in virtually every genre.


Icemage

[cidbahamut]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

I don't know about that. I still haven't come across anything that dethrones Rocket Jockey.

[Icemage]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

I don't know about that. I still haven't come across anything that dethrones Rocket Jockey.

...Wait, what? You just got done saying how indies were terrible and shareware was awesome because indies are moneygrubbers and don't make their own game engines...

And you hold up Rocket Jockey as your counter-argument? A game published through a Sega joint venture and built on the RenderWare engine?

SMH.

EDIT: It occurs to me that you might be implying something more obtuse like "Oh well there hasn't been a game like Rocket Jockey that does it better than Rocket Jockey." To which I would respond: Who cares? There haven't been any better half-beast transformation fighting games since Bloody Roar, but that's more to do with there being not much interest in creating or playing anything like that.


Icemage

[cidbahamut]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

...Wait, what? You just got done saying how indies were terrible and shareware was awesome because indies are moneygrubbers and don't make their own game engines...

No, that was Dak. I never said a damn thing about moneygrubbing or game engines.

My complaint is more along the lines of how we've created a culture and tools for any 2-bit hack to put out a crummy game and have it be received with raucous fanfare.

[Icemage]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

No, that was Dak. I never said a damn thing about moneygrubbing or game engines.

My complaint is more along the lines of how we've created a culture and tools for any 2-bit hack to put out a crummy game and have it be received with raucous fanfare.

True, but everyone has to start somewhere, and you never have to play the bad games. I just don't see why you feel that the older games are somehow better. There was a ton of garbage back in the day, and there still is today. I do think there are a lot more good games overall today simply because many more games are being made - the industry is a lot larger these days.


Icemage

[cidbahamut]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

I do think there are a lot more good games overall today simply because many more games are being made - the industry is a lot larger these days.

And here is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think there are proportionally more good games being released today. Perhaps more overall simply due to the sheer volume being released, but not proportionally more and that bothers me. It seems we're still struggling with the problem of how to pass on the skills it takes to create a good game.

[Armando]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

It seems we're still struggling with the problem of how to pass on the skills it takes to create a good game.

Which is exactly why it's silly to be against the low barrier to entry for indie development. From what I've read - and hopefully someone else can chime in here - a very large portion of the professional game development is toxic - incredibly unhealthy work/life ratios, high turnover rates, and lower wages/benefits than being an average enterprisey software developer. They have a huge pool of young, unmarried people they can chew up and spit out over a short time span. With a process like that, a relatively low number of people last long enough to become experts. On top of that, the state of the art still involves using an antiquated and tragically flawed programming language (C++) and a very misunderstood and problematic programming style (object-oriented).

Letting anyone with a computer try to make a game may produce a lot of garbage but hopefully we'll see some progress in game development techniques and pass them on quicker and to a wider audience than the industry currently can.

EDIT: The programming language/paradigm debate continues here.

[Malacite]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

Which is exactly why it's silly to be against the low barrier to entry for indie development. From what I've read - and hopefully someone else can chime in here - a very large portion of the professional game development is toxic - incredibly unhealthy work/life ratios, high turnover rates, and lower wages/benefits than being an average enterprisey software developer. They have a huge pool of young, unmarried people they can chew up and spit out over a short time span. With a process like that, a relatively low number of people last long enough to become experts. On top of that, the state of the art still involves using an antiquated and tragically flawed programming language (C++) and a very misunderstood and problematic programming style (object-oriented).

Letting anyone with a computer try to make a game may produce a lot of garbage but hopefully we'll see some progress in game development techniques and pass them on quicker and to a wider audience than the industry currently can.

Yep. A friend and I have actually begun work on our own little project. No idea how far it'll go but hey, gotta start somewhere. I've also got my own little pet project I've been wanting to make forever but it's the sort of thing that has to get shelved until if & when such a time arises I have the resources - it's not something I want to half-ass (doesn't have to be OMGL337 production values like say FF13-2 but I'd like to see some kind of standards >.>)

[Aeni]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

For all the hoopla about the indies, how much of the console market is that, revenue wise? Independent developers are the darlings of the critics, but I always wondered if they get much love from the consumers' wallets.

Where do you think a healthy portion of Steam's profits are derived from? Not the major publishers as they get the lion's share of profits and Steam would be a fool to say "no" to them (at least, not at this very moment, as that can change in the future)

This was explained to me with regards to Microsoft's problem. There's only a certain number of slots where you can put out physical titles. You are not allowed to publish a multi-platform title on an XBox competitor at a different time. So, let's say you got a March 2014 slot, but due to bugs, you are forced to delay this release. Your PS3 and Wii U ports are ready to go, but under this contract, you are not allowed to release ahead. So, you have this property you're sitting on, can't make any money, and meanwhile you have costs to take care of and employees to pay. And then you are ready for April, and then Microsoft tells you no slots available, try again in July. This is just one of many other issues that was explained to me. Bigger companies can absorb this, but not smaller companies. In what way is this "emotional"? Take off your Microsoft apron and come back to this discussion in a neutral manner.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

Take off your Microsoft apron and come back to this discussion in a neutral manner.

You may have a somewhat wrong idea about me; I've never owned an xBox, and I'm not cheering for MS. (Not exactly, anyway.) But, it's true that I'm not into neutrality; I like to poke at unexamined assumptions, even the ones I think are probably true.

Where do you think a healthy portion of Steam's profits are derived from? Not the major publishers as they get the lion's share of profits and Steam would be a fool to say "no" to them (at least, not at this very moment, as that can change in the future)

I didn't know--I still don't, actually. Steam hasn't been a major part of my game life. I do agree that the profit margin likely would be higher for Steam on the indies' titles, but that's little different than any company dealing with suppliers with little clout.

You have revenue figures? I was looking for a reasonable definition of "The Indies", and Steam's definition should be decent enough. It would be even nicer if I have data to compare the size of different platforms and how each's revenue breaks down between indies and others, but that's probably hard to come by.

This was explained to me with regards to Microsoft's problem. There's only a certain number of slots where you can put out physical titles. You are not allowed to publish a multi-platform title on an XBox competitor at a different time. So, let's say you got a March 2014 slot, but due to bugs, you are forced to delay this release. Your PS3 and Wii U ports are ready to go, but under this contract, you are not allowed to release ahead. So, you have this property you're sitting on, can't make any money, and meanwhile you have costs to take care of and employees to pay. And then you are ready for April, and then Microsoft tells you no slots available, try again in July. This is just one of many other issues that was explained to me. Bigger companies can absorb this, but not smaller companies.

That does sound rather inconvenient. Still, MS has changed policies before, and if the company these requirements harm its platform more than help it, it'll modify them, I would think.

[Aeni]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

That does sound rather inconvenient. Still, MS has changed policies before, and if the company these requirements harm its platform more than help it, it'll modify them, I would think.

That's precisely the problem. They've gotten even worse since their XB1 unveil. Can you imagine that? He couldn't go into too much more details as individual contracts are NDA and so certain processes can be talked about, but not the entire wheeling and dealing. I know he said that over at EA when he worked on Medal of Honor, there was a lot of tension between the two tech giants, and a lot of times, when EA would back a smaller developer, if issues arose, then EA had to do what they did, and sometimes (can't really blame MS directly, but the process has some hand) they would cut off the smaller guys, in order to prioritize their own marquee lineups.

Meanwhile, Sony has pretty much done everything that they can within their own agenda, to accommodate small developers and big developers alike. They don't put unnecessary restrictions, lower barriers to entry, and try to be a bit more even handed. They don't even require you to have something spelled out. If you got an idea or project and it seems promising to them, they'll open their door. If you can't get a master's thesis behind your work and a suitcase of cash in tow, Microsoft won't even pick up the Skype channel with you.

[Malacite]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

So much technical jargon . _ .

[Malacite]

Re: XB1 3 Million Units Sold

So... this thread's officially done then?

Interesting as the debate is, I feel like it should be confined to its own thread.