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  • Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

    Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

    By Dave Lee Technology reporter, BBC News

    Nintendo, whose latest console has sold poorly, could be on a "path to irrelevance", the founder of legendary games company Atari has said.


    In an interview with the BBC, Nolan Bushnell said the Japanese firm was left in a "very difficult position".


    Games analysts have drawn parallels between Atari's doomed Jaguar console in 1993 and the struggling Wii U.


    Mr Bushnell said Atari had been "abused by corporate charlatans" after a "glorious beginning".


    The 70-year-old had been speaking at Campus Party, an event held at London's O2 Arena in which thousands of developers, staying in tents, worked together on various collaborative technology projects.


    Founding father

    Mr Bushnell, who gave a keynote speech at the event, now runs an educational software company called Brainrush.


    "It's about taking game technology, mashing it up with brain science, and creating some pretty powerful software towards learning," he said.


    "We have some really powerful engines right now that are knocking it out of the park. You'll hear a lot about it in the next few years."


    Mr Bushnell is famed in the computer games industry and beyond for being a "founding father" of video games. But equally as famous as his early success was Atari's dramatic fall, something he warned may face Nintendo.


    "I don't think handheld game-only devices make sense anymore," he told the BBC. "Not when you have an iPod or an Android microtablet.


    "When it comes to the console market, I think the market is truncating.


    "Nintendo always had a soft spot for young people - they sort of did the 12-and-under pretty well, and the other guys did the 12-and-over.


    "And now I think the other [consoles] are good enough on those things, and the rush to upgrade from the 12-and-under is not nearly as important."


    'Motion sickness'

    Atari's Jaguar console was released in 1993, but was effectively discontinued three years later. The console's release date was seen as its critical flaw - while more powerful than existing consoles at the time from Sega and Nintendo, it was soon eclipsed by newer consoles from Sega and Sony.


    Similarly, the Wii U, released ahead of Christmas last year, has had slow sales - and is soon about to come up against more powerful machines in the shape of Microsoft's Xbox One and the PlayStation 4.


    The Wii U's poor sales have led to it no longer being stocked by some key retailers, such as Asda, while several games publishing companies have either stopped making titles for the platform, or made it a low priority.


    In modern gaming, Mr Bushnell said he is most excited by the possibilities of the Oculus Rift - a virtual reality headset that has been backed by several influential figures in the games industry.


    "The problem with virtual reality has always been motion sickness," he said.


    "If they're able to really get the reality and the image right, with low latency, I think they'll get it.


    "With most motion sickness you can build up immunity - and I believe that will represent a brand new, really powerful gaming system."
    Source

    While I personally think that Nintendo could survive the Wii U going the way of the Dreamcast, the article does have a point about the corporate side running things into the ground. Plus there is also the fact that Nintendo refuses to progress or innovate. They have always seemed to have been stuck in that "Okay this works so why change it?" set of mind, without considering what gamers really want and if it's really relevant. The 2DS and the fact that they are screaming about a Zelda WW port are great examples of this. People are waiting for good first party stuff to come out to actually justify buying a console that seems to be constantly sabotaging itself, but the only exciting things this year have been Third party games on the 3DS, the majority of them being made by Atlus.

    Then you have to look at the Wii U itself and the current decision to cut prices even more. The Wii U is already being sold at a loss and slashing prices further will just make it worse if there are no games to make people to want to buy your shit. Nintendo are doing the equivalent of chainsawing off your legs to shed weight while crossing the fucking Mojave Desert. And staying with the desert analogy, they seem to be that guy tho is gasping for water next to a broken down and sand clogged car, but refuses to take your water and insists on eating salted crisps until he keeps over.

    They are basically like Sony 6 years ago. Every time I hear a news story about them I just feel myself facepalming.
    Rahal Gerrant - Balmung - 188 DRK
    Reiko Takahashi
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  • #2
    Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

    Apologies if I can take nothing about this thread seriously at all. Seriously, the title sounds like a headline ripped from The Onion.
    Originally posted by Armando
    No one at Square Enix has heard of Occam's Razor.
    Originally posted by Armando
    Nintendo always seems to have a legion of haters at the wings ready to jump in and prop up straw men about hardware and gimmicks and casuals.
    Originally posted by Taskmage
    GOD IS MIFFED AT AMERICA

    REPENT SINNERS OR AT LEAST GIVE A NONCOMMITTAL SHRUG

    GOD IS AMBIVALENT ABOUT FURRIES

    THE END IS COMING ONE OF THESE DAYS WHEN GOD GETS AROUND TO IT
    Originally posted by Taskmage
    However much I am actually smart, I got that way by confronting how stupid I am.
    Matthew 16:15

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    • #3
      Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

      Just seems like a plug for the VR system to me.
      sigpic

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      • #4
        Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

        Nintendo is worth 10 billion with five billion dollars in liquid assets on hand.
        Sony is six billion dollars in debt and restructuring.
        The Xbox brand only became profitable a couple years ago, but the rest of MS is being ravaged by Apple and Samsung because they're done with Sony.
        Bushnell's company honestly died (in terms of relevance) thirty years ago. Atari helped nearly destroy the industry before it was sold to a French company.

        And yet everyone wants to tell Nintendo how to run themselves.

        Its interesting so much of the press in addition to sheltered hardcore gamers don't accuse PS4 of being a potential Dreamcast. Hate to break it to people but $400 was never the sweet spot for consoles and in this shitter of an economy PS4 and XB1 are going to struggle at $400 and $500. Yes, PS4 has nice preorder numbers - so did Dreamcast and Wii U and a lot o other platforms that struggled or failed. Its not a sign of long term growth.

        If hollow industry buzzwords like "innovation" moved platforms and inspired new IPs, PS4 and XB1 would not have so many third party ports of games that PS3 and 360 will also have this fall. You can practically smell the fear of third parties in that regard. If they were so confident in these new platforms, there wouldn't be so many ports and more fresh, new IP. I think the companies that decided to hang back and wait and just stick with PS3 and 360 have the right of it. Rockstar knew what they were doing when they lined up GTA V for this month.

        Nintendo can just sit back and play the long game. They have thirty years of profit and growth against one year of loss - and they're not at a loss this year even with the Wii U. Sony has had about nine recent years of loss on only made a profit again this year, but then, the 6 billion in debt kinda kills that.
        Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 09-07-2013, 09:06 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

          Does anyone else notice how BBQ's sentence construction starts falling apart when he's feverishly defending Nintendo? It's the weirdest thing.
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          • #6
            Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

            Or I'm just sleepy yet can't sleep.

            The Wii U is not doing well. I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. Even so, if Nintendo is being managed so poorly and is doing so bad - why do they remain more profitable than the competition?

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            • #7
              Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

              I'm not really sure anyone should be taking Nolan Bushnell's opinion with much weight. He commented shortly before the Xbox One reveal that he thought Microsoft would be winning this next generation of console wars.

              Nintendo does seem to have some internal issues, and those shouldn't be just hand-waved away with the obscene profits they made off the NDS and Wii. There are plenty of profitable companies that end up being completely irrelevant.

              For instance:

              Yahoo: Once the king of online portals, does anyone really use them for anything except legacy email any more?
              Research In Motion: The makers of the once-dominant Blackberry are flush with cash, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a more irrelevant tech company aside from maybe...
              Nokia: Between them RIM (above) and Nokia were the monarchs of the early days of cell phones, but gross mismanagement and awful reads of the consumer landscape left them floundering for mindshare, dropping from around 40% market share to less than 5% today.

              Nintendo's not doomed in the traditional sense; they do have immense cash reserves. But those are finite, and they're running a very real risk of becoming completely detached from the older gaming demographic (age 20+).

              The 3DS is selling fine, and I'm sure the 2DS will do well this holiday, but Nintendo still doesn't seem to realize how much damage to their home console brand they're sustaining after all these many years of actively ignoring non-kid gamers. The Wii U has many issues, but first and forement it has completely lost touch with its presumed target audience. It doesn't particularly appeal to anyone on its own merits. What little appeal it has revolves around the games it offers (Bayonetta, Zombe U, Pikmin 3, Wonderful 101, New Super Mario Brothers U, etc.). I really think Nintendo has done themselves a serious disservice by adopting their "second console" approach. They've let the tail wag the dog, letting their desire for a target demographic profile dominate their hardware AND software design.


              Icemage

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              • #8
                Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

                Atari was the first major company to suffer from horrible mismanagement in the game industy. it's wrong to dismiss the founder like that, it's like putting 100% of the blame for the Wii U's current state of Shigeru Miyamoto when in reality, it's the idiots in charge of actually managing the company that have been getting it wrong.

                If Nintendo are being managed so well then why isn't anyone buying their stuff? Using BBQ's logic Microsoft, Samsung and Apple are the best managed companies in the world due to their turnover only.

                Originally posted by Icemage View Post
                Nintendo does seem to have some internal issues, and those shouldn't be just hand-waved away with the obscene profits they made off the NDS and Wii. There are plenty of profitable companies that end up being completely irrelevant.

                ...

                Nintendo's not doomed in the traditional sense; they do have immense cash reserves. But those are finite, and they're running a very real risk of becoming completely detached from the older gaming demographic (age 20+). Icemage
                Actually that is exactly what the article says if you read it . The second console mindset that they have put themselves in with the Wii U was a stupid idea and they started admitting that they were becoming less relevant outside of Japan when they pulled out of E3.

                Part of me is wondering if that is because they have scared off developers with the hardware. it is far easier to develop for the PC, PS4 and XBox One due to the hardware configurations being identical. Likewise for molbile gaming, developing for the Vita and Smartphones is pretty easy since they basically use the same technology. Looking at the Wii U and 3DS, how many game actually even take advantage of the hardware, and use both screens properly? Very few, and most of them aren't even first party games, games that we would expect to take advantage of the technology. The ones that actually do use both screens well tend to use it in a pretty boring way, the Etrian Odyssey games use the screen well but it is only for a single purpose/ Fire Emblem Awakening tried to use the bottom screen as tactical map but...Well that is it really, everything that can be done on that screen can be done better with the pad. One thing that I have been wondering is that how many DS games would be so different played on a single screen? Very few: Hotel Dusk and...I'll have to get back on you for any others.

                And the Nokia comment is a perfect comparison. They still make perfectly good smartphones with some very good and simple to use software. My little sister has one of the Nokia Smartphones and it is a great phone for the price, and since it's Nokia, the thing will be indestructible. The company is also making huge profits due to never taking any risks but it slao means that they are never at the forefront of innovative design and technology; everything that they use or put out, is just a less powerful version of tech we already have. The thing is, this also describes Nintendo very, very well and could be their future.

                Nintendo no longer wants to be a leader, and that is why they are becoming less and less relevant to gaming.
                Rahal Gerrant - Balmung - 188 DRK
                Reiko Takahashi
                - Balmung - 182 AST, 191 BLM, 182 SCH, 188 SMN
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                • #9
                  Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

                  If Nintendo are being managed so well then why isn't anyone buying their stuff? Using BBQ's logic Microsoft, Samsung and Apple are the best managed companies in the world due to their turnover only.
                  Of those three I'd only consider Samsung to have good management at the moment. Microsoft is going through one of the most turbulent management changing of the guards I've ever witnessed, and Apple's Tim Cook just doesn't seem to have the same spark for promoting successful innovation that Steve Jobs did.

                  Actually that is exactly what the article says if you read it .
                  Sure, but I think deriving the framework of the argument specifically from Nolan Bushnell's opinion clouds the issue because I don't consider his opinion to be worth very much. It doesn't make what he says wrong, but that's not the same thing as saying it's right because he says so, if you catch my drift. Bushnell is a great pioneer, but I feel his view of the modern gaming landscape is incredibly incomplete and in some cases outright misinformed.

                  Part of me is wondering if that is because they have scared off developers with the hardware. it is far easier to develop for the PC, PS4 and XBox One due to the hardware configurations being identical.
                  That's not really Nintendo's fault, per se. Nintendo had no way of knowing what was going to happen between Sony and Microsoft coincidentally changing to x86 architecture. That they both did so does mean Bad Things for Nintendo's home console business in both the short and long-term, however. You could blame Nintendo for not being prescient enough to come to the same conclusion that Sony and Microsoft did independently of one another, but that still feels like a hollow argument.

                  Likewise for molbile gaming, developing for the Vita and Smartphones is pretty easy since they basically use the same technology. Looking at the Wii U and 3DS, how many game actually even take advantage of the hardware, and use both screens properly?
                  I'd say The World Ends With You makes a pretty good argument for the second screen on the NDS, but there hasn't been a compelling 2-screen on the 3DS, and certainly there hasn't been one for the Wii U.

                  Nintendo no longer wants to be a leader, and that is why they are becoming less and less relevant to gaming.
                  That's exactly right. The moment they embarked on their "we want to be the second console" philosophy, they stopped caring about being the trendsetters. They got lucky with the Wii because the hype train covered up the fact that there actually weren't all that many good games on the console; you can see the stark difference now with the Wii U, because it's basically the Wii without the hype, and selling exactly like how one would expect.


                  Icemage

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                  • #10
                    Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

                    Originally posted by Firewind
                    Using BBQ's logic Microsoft, Samsung and Apple are the best managed companies in the world due to their turnover only.
                    if you rephrase BBQ's question as the statement "If a company is more profitable than its competition, it's not managed poorly", the correct conclusion is that Microsoft/Samsung/Apple aren't managed poorly either. To reach your conclusion, the original assertion would've had to be "If a company is less profitable than another, it's managed worse than the other".

                    I actually don't have anything else to contribute to the discussion because I don't keep up with who's making or losing profits and I'm definitely biased anyways.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

                      If you're hard-pressed to find good two-screen games on DS and 3DS beyond TWEWY, you didn't play either enough or get very deep into their libraries. I generally lament any dungeon crawler that came to PSP or Vita because having the map on the second screen is just that useful. I also like that a lot critical information, inventory or menu functions are commonly accessible from the second screen. It keeps the game flowing more quickly.

                      Pretty much any Level 5 game would be better for being on 3DS because of L5's obsession with drag-and-drop inventory systems - Dragon Quest IX more than proved that. Bethesda could also stand to learn something by applying their atrocious menus to the DS format to arrive at something far less clunky.

                      Etrian Odyssey wouldn't even be possible on PS Vita since it would be hard and unpleasant to devote mapping duties and dungeon navigation to the same screen at the same time. DS and 3DS get to capture the graph paper element of the older dungeon crawlers without disrupting the pace by shuffling through menus.

                      I'm more intorested in the second screen for practical functions like this and removing HUD clutter on the main screen, though. If you're looking for the gameplay gimmickry of TWEWY, there's a reason it never got far and that reason is everywhere from iPad to PS Vita.

                      I'd prefer Wii U's GamePad retain that practical approach, because as nifty as Game and Wario is, its ideas are not practical for other full-retail games. I have a feeling Wind Waker HD will use it well, though. If Ubi Soft can't figure a way to make use of it for Watch_Dogs... yeah, big missed opportunity there.
                      Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 09-08-2013, 10:08 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

                        Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                        If you're hard-pressed to find good two-screen games on DS and 3DS beyond TWEWY, you didn't play either enough or get very deep into their libraries.
                        Considering that maps and inventory generally involve the tremendously onerous task of "press the select or start button", I can totally see why you feel these are necessary features that make second screens a good idea. I can't imagine how we survived for decades without anyone really complaining about such obviously antiquated features that are in every game. Oh, and screw those mini-map things; they wouldn't be practical on the NDS screen resolution anyway.

                        /sarcasm

                        Pretty much any Level 5 game would be better for being on 3DS because of L5's obsession with drag-and-drop inventory systems - Dragon Quest IX more than proved that. Bethesda could also stand to learn something by applying their atrocious menus to the DS format to arrive at something far less clunky.
                        Funny, I didn't have any problem juggling inventory in Ni No Kuni for PS3. Bethesda's menus suck, but that's more because Bethesda sucks at UI design, not because inventory screens don't work.

                        I'm more intorested in the second screen for practical functions like this and removing HUD clutter on the main screen, though. If you're looking for the gameplay gimmickry of TWEWY, there's a reason it never got far and that reason is everywhere from iPad to PS Vita.
                        I would understand the concept of moving HUD off the screen if the trend wasn't already moving toward mostly invisible-until-necessary HUD elements anyway.

                        Nintendo needs more games like Okami, Wonderful 101 and TWEWY to show people why having another screen with touch controls is useful, not more side-screen inventory and maps that no one is bothered by in the first place.


                        Icemage

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                        • #13
                          Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

                          Inventory on the lower screen tends to be highly disruptive given that you often have to stop what you're doing to tap the bottom screen with the stylus to switch, which often means that you have to take your hand off one side of the DS in order to do that. So you are forced to stop moving or stop using whatever action you were previously using. That or you would have to pause the game which completely defeats the point of having a map or inventory on the lower screen anyway. Contrast say Skyrim or Legend of Grimrock where hitting the inventory or map hotkey simply pauses the game.

                          For the vast majority of DS and 3DS games, there would really be zero difference if they were on a console with a single screen. But given the two screen system has been out for so long...Well whose fault is it really? The developers for programming around what is basically a gimmick on the console with the largest userbase, or Nintendo for putting it there and never using it properly with their own first party games in the first place?
                          Rahal Gerrant - Balmung - 188 DRK
                          Reiko Takahashi
                          - Balmung - 182 AST, 191 BLM, 182 SCH, 188 SMN
                          Haters Gonna Hate



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                          • #14
                            Re: Nintendo faces 'path to irrelevance', says Atari founder

                            Nitpicking: Opening the inventory in Grimrock does not pause anything. It's kind of brutal that way.
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