Iwata & Region Locking

[Aeni]

Nintendo president defends region locking | Ars Technica

Nintendo is anachronistic, considering that leaving region locking to the publishers is ideally preferable, since ratings (as Iwata used as an excuse) are aimed at the games and not the platform. I've never seen or heard of a console manufacturer being successfully sued for not having region locking in place so it puzzles me as to why they cite legal reasons behind their motivations. It sounds like it's protectionism through and through.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

Beneath the headline, for emphasis:

Statements came before grassroots movement calling for policy reversal.

IGN and numerous other sites did not report this story in its proper context, making it sound like Nintendo's comments came after the this little campaign started (hello, tabloid journalism). These were comments that were taken from E3 and this "movement" only came about when Xbox One made a reversal on region locking, DRM and the like.

And its just worth pointing out - due to communications standards/laws vary by region the WiiPad would always be region locked regardless of whether or not Nintendo reversed the decision. Just can't be helped.

Also, region locking doesn't affect that many gamers. There are more people that care about playing the next Zelda or Pokemon game more than they care about region locking. Of all the facets to worry about with a console, its seriously one of the least important issues.

[Firewind]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

White Knighting anti-consumer practises makes you part of the problem. Something that affects a portion of gamers effects gaming as a whole. "Oooooh but it doesn't affect meeeee!" is a whiny argument I hear all the time by people who White Knight their favourite platform. You just need a minority of gamers approving something and it is forced on us all. Nintendo refusing to go region free IS a bit deal. The fact that you are approving of Region Locking must also mean you approve of piracy as that is often the only way for most of the world to access a lot of video games because of a region lockout. The date of the statement is not relevant, the subject however IS.

What makes this sad is that the people defending this practise are the same people who whined, and moaned, and cried, and complained as part of Operation Rainfall, even though those games could be played on a US Wii with no issues. The problem here is that the approval of region locking on the Wii U may well result in confirmation bias on Nintendo's side. The sad thing is that this is what is killing Nintendo in Europe. There is a huge lack of quality releases on the Wii U and 3DS, many of them coming to the US but never seeing an EU release, so most stick to iOS or Android for portable gaming.

And Iwata hiding behind "cultural differences" as an excuse for his own bullshit. Sorry I only have two words for that argument used in any context:

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUCK! OFF!

Sorry but anyone that uses culture/religion/some old archaic ideal as an excuse to hide behind ANYTHING to avoid showing any shred of common decency should go ahead and do the above. I make no apologies for invoking Godwin's law in a gaming thread but history has shown us exactly what happens when people use that to justify thier bullshit and it has only ever caused destruction and the creation of a toxic environment for everyone else.

The real reason thy want to region lock the console is what I have been pointing out for years and what Atlus openly admitted to during the Persona 4 Arena debacle: greed. Pure, unadulterated greed. Japanese and European gamers are constantly gouged on the prices of video games and the practice of Region Locking is there to prevent people from buying from a cheaper market in order to maximise profits. Nintendo don't care about gamers. Nintendo, like Sony and Microsoft just care about your wallet.

[Aeni]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

Also, region locking doesn't affect that many gamers. There are more people that care about playing the next Zelda or Pokemon game more than they care about region locking. Of all the facets to worry about with a console, its seriously one of the least important issues.

It doesn't affect me, per se, since I would just buy (import) the console of the region which enables me to import the games for that particular console, but that's kind of besides the point. If, as you say, it doesn't affect many consumers and that it's a minor issue, then why not leave it in the hands of developers/publishers to decide whether or not their games should be cross-regional or region specific? The platform ought to be open and should not be restrictive if they want to include as many developers (or if they claim to embrace ALL developers within reasonable context)

I only see this move as being protectionist because of financial gain. This has something to do with economic models and scale of economy and the ways it works across various regional markets. Atlas was a good example with region locking on simultaneous, world-wise releases of Persona 4: Mayonaka Arena, because (a) the games were pretty much all the same (b) the games were priced differently. They did not want to lose money from "reverse importation" of products. In this example, it has very little to do with laws and restrictions, and as long as they follow the protocols with rating and marketing, they were not crossing any legal boundaries if they did not impose region restrictions.

As for legal issues surrounding the pad device, I find that hard to swallow, because Nntendo was never embroiled with any of the patent agencies in each of the economic territories around the world. AFAIK, legal issues that surround such a device has only involved Apple, Samsung and a few of the bigger tech manufacturers. Nintendo DOES NOT manufacture their own products, as they outsource all hardware manufacturing to Chinese partners. So they are not in any danger of running afoul of the ITC or any other body/organization responsible for technology patenting and standards compliance. The operation of the wireless frequency is based on an age-old standard, namely IEEE 802.11, and the spectrum used is not unusual nor is it grounds for any special handling. Besides, IIRC, the standards are issued by a trade association, an alliance of manufacturers and service providers, and has little to do with government restrictions or regulations. In practically every region, the spectrums are in the interest of the public domain, so again, I have no idea why Iwata cited such concerns. If that was the case, then why didn't we see region locking on the DS devices?

Nintendo, as many people should know by now, are their own game developer and publisher, so region locking goes hand-in-hand with their need to protect income streams and at the same time, market their appeal as "the world protector of children everywhere (tm)".

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

DS and PSP were totally region free and PSP's momentum was severely hampered by piracy, which also damaged DS game sales in later years. Its not surprising Nintendo chose to region lock 3DS after that and Sony made region free a pain-in-the-ass on Vita.

Xenoblade, The Last Story and Pandora's Tower did not happen because of Operation Rainfall, either, waves of nasty phonecalls did. You'll also note that the CEO of NOA that oversaw stalling those games is, you know, kind of replaced by Iwata and "X" and SMT X Fire Emblem were confirmed for western release in a US Nintendo Direct by Iwata. Confirmed twice, in fact.

Also, what are people needing to import on Wii U? Yakuza 1 & 2 HD would probably be the only thing to import at this point, if that's even something compelling to import.

Atlus was a good example with region locking on simultaneous, world-wise releases of Persona 4: Mayonaka Arena, because (a) the games were pretty much all the same (b) the games were priced differently. They did not want to lose money from "reverse importation" of products.

How is that any different from worldwide releases Nintendo does, though? The only real difference is Atlus USA did push for dual-languages and there are laws in place to protect third party recording studios and sure rather notable licensing fees are paid to those companies by those outside Japan. Nintendo is big enough to record internally, maintain recording studios and avoid that licensing issue with dual audio - they don't have to farm out recording duties like Atlus does.

East or West, however, those third party recording studios are a big business.

The dual audio, simultaneous US/Japan release and the cheaper US price were exactly what brought on the region lock for P4A. Pretty much everything Atlus USA asked for that would please fans resulted in the suits at Index Corp wanting a region lock.

I can think of only one instance in recent years where region-free did anything for me - demos, but even that was a bit of a pain in the ass to get working on PSP.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

Oh noes, teh piracys gais!

BBQ is there somewhere I can order a pair of replacement blinders? I seem to have lost mine several years ago and haven't been able to find a new pair.

[Aeni]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

How is that any different from worldwide releases Nintendo does, though?

None whatsoever. I cited the Atlas example for the real reasons why Nintendo wanted to region lock. It had very (if little) concerns with legal/technical issues and had mostly everything to do with financial incentives.

TL;DR Nintendo region locks because it was in their financial interest to do so. They just can't (or won't) spell that out to the general public after the backlash Microsoft received over their initial Xbone plans at introduction.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

TL;DR Nintendo region locks because it was in their financial interest to do so.

This is pretty much the lion's share of Nintendo's motivation, IMO. (However, it is easier/safer to comply some laws with region locks' help, I'm sure, so that explanation shouldn't be discounted entirely.)

Just keep in mind that most video gamers want video games in their own language; the number of people who would really benefit a lot from a region-free world is rather low.

[Firewind]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

DS and PSP were totally region free and PSP's momentum was severely hampered by piracy, which also damaged DS game sales in later years. Its not surprising Nintendo chose to region lock 3DS after that and Sony made region free a pain-in-the-ass on Vita.

Xenoblade, The Last Story and Pandora's Tower did not happen because of Operation Rainfall, either, waves of nasty phonecalls did. You'll also note that the CEO of NOA that oversaw stalling those games is, you know, kind of replaced by Iwata and "X" and SMT X Fire Emblem were confirmed for western release in a US Nintendo Direct by Iwata. Confirmed twice, in fact.

Also, what are people needing to import on Wii U? Yakuza 1 & 2 HD would probably be the only thing to import at this point, if that's even something compelling to import.



How is that any different from worldwide releases Nintendo does, though? The only real difference is Atlus USA did push for dual-languages and there are laws in place to protect third party recording studios and sure rather notable licensing fees are paid to those companies by those outside Japan. Nintendo is big enough to record internally, maintain recording studios and avoid that licensing issue with dual audio - they don't have to farm out recording duties like Atlus does.

East or West, however, those third party recording studios are a big business.

The dual audio, simultaneous US/Japan release and the cheaper US price were exactly what brought on the region lock for P4A. Pretty much everything Atlus USA asked for that would please fans resulted in the suits at Index Corp wanting a region lock.

I can think of only one instance in recent years where region-free did anything for me - demos, but even that was a bit of a pain in the ass to get working on PSP.

Sorry but you argue against anti-consumer actions all the time. Why should Nintendo and Atlus get a free pass for pulling the same bullshit you constantly call out Microsoft, Sony, EA, Activision, UbiSoft et al for?

Nobody is free from criticism. Everyone should be questioned.

And for the last fucking tome. Just because someone is not important to you personally does not mean it's a big deal for other people.

Backwards comparability is something I do not give a shit about personally. I keep my old consoles so I have no need for it. I still have my original Master system, my Mega Drive, my SNES, my PS1, my N64. Does this mean that I think BC is a bad thing? God no, I think it's a wonderful thing that allows people to experience older games that they may have missed, or something that can be shown to new gamers. Lack if BC does not have an effect on me personally. However. However. The removal of BC effects gamers as a whole, for that reason I will fight tooth and nail to preserve that, even if it doesn't benefit me personally, because it's the right fucking thing to do and it benefits the industry and gamers as a whole.

Don't think I'm singling you out on this. I know many gamers who I have yelled at for the same fucking thing but just because it's not your problem, doesn't mean it's not your problem. Apathy is one of the many things that is wrong with gaming at the moment. So many labels are thrown around at gamers protesting about things. "Fanboyism", Entitlement", "Nerdrage", to those labels I say "Bull! Shit!". it was Edmund Burke that said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." That phrase can never be more relevant in this matter. Throwing up your hands and saying "It doesn't affect me so it doesn't count!" is exactly what makes people part of the problem.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

Backwards comparability is something I do not give a shit about personally. [...] However. However. The removal of BC effects gamers as a whole, for that reason I will fight tooth and nail to preserve that, even if it doesn't benefit me personally, because it's the right fucking thing to do and it benefits the industry and gamers as a whole.

Hmm. But, backward compatibility isn't free; it helped to push PS3 launch price to the stratosphere.

The money time and effort spent on backward compatibility amounts to resources not spent on new features. BC features often require engineering trade offs, too. And, it makes it harder for the console maker to convince developers to dive into the new platform when players have thousands of games on it already. (Well, up to the point of BC helping sell consoles--but that didn't happen much for the initial batch of PS3, did it?) It also makes it less enticing to refresh old games with better graphics the new console can deliver.

It even negatively impacts the console's ecosystem years down the road; backward compatibility makes the system more complex, more buggy, and harder to evolve. ('Evolve' here generally means using fewer chips to deliver generally the same feature and performance at a lower price, like PS2 slim to the original PS2.) Potentially, you'll be losing the chance to deliver a cheaper and better current generation solution at every stage of its life cycle.

Does it really help everyone to deliver the console late at a higher price, with more bugs, and probably affording less developer enthusiasm?

The answer is actually not 'Yes' or 'No': It's about what price the consumers are willing to pay for the backward compatibility. Which is to say, who are your buyers? And, would you make more money pleasing them, or should you cater to someone else?

[Icemage]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

And its just worth pointing out - due to communications standards/laws vary by region the WiiPad would always be region locked regardless of whether or not Nintendo reversed the decision. Just can't be helped.

Eh? I call shenanigans. That's outright bullshit, and you know it.

The Wii U GamePad has the same tech in it in every territory. The GamePads work with Wii U consoles from other regions; the only difference is that the firmware updates for the GamePad are region-specific, so you can't update a NA GamePad using a JP Wii U. Assuming the firmware is up to date, however, you can use any GamePad on any Wii U console.


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Sorry but you argue against anti-consumer actions all the time. Why should Nintendo and Atlus get a free pass for pulling the same bullshit you constantly call out Microsoft, Sony, EA, Activision, UbiSoft et al for?

Nobody is free from criticism. Everyone should be questioned.

Because BBQ has a huge boner for anything with a Nintendo logo on it. Duh?

And for the last fucking time. Just because someone is not important to you personally does not mean it's a big deal for other people.

I've pointed this out to him many times. It never seems to sink in. /shrug

As for backward compatibility, it's nice, but optional is better than enforced at a higher cost. One of the biggest reasons the Wii U hardware is so underpowered compared to the Xbox One and PS4 is because Nintendo used a huge chunk of space on their processing chip for backward compatibility instead of designing in more powerful computing hardware.


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

meow.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

Hmm. But, backward compatibility isn't free;

The price point doesn't really matter. It's an ongoing issue that needs to be comprehensively addressed but is barely given any recognition.

I'll stop harping on the issue when I have some assurance that I'll be able to play all my SNES and N64 games 30 years after Nintendo closes its doors, whenever that may be.

[Malacite]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

Funny, I don't remember BC affecting PS2's price that much (I could be wrong though, and the emotion engine was a whole other complex monster of its own).

2nd best selling console of all time too.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Iwata & Region Locking

Funny, I don't remember BC affecting PS2's price that much (I could be wrong though, and the emotion engine was a whole other complex monster of its own).

PS2 included the original PS1 CPU (some MIPS chip) at release. Keep in mind 'cost' isn't just about the price tag the consumers see (which is fudge-able--large companies like Sony can absorb some amount of initial per unit loses in order to push the product). Additional engineering complexity always cost time and money and introduce bugs.

You do point out the right way to evaluate if backward compatibility, region lock, etc. are worthwhile: Did the console managed to sell well?

Unfortunately, that's not something the companies can answer before they release their console to the world.

The price point doesn't really matter.

Hmm. I would argue that the price point always matters except for people with more money than sense, especially for a feature like backward compatibility.

The people who most want to be able to play older games are the people who have older games--which means they probably already have the older consoles to play those games. BC then, is little more than a bullet point in the advertisement. How much more increase in the price is worth that "one more thing you can mention in ads"? That's the way I look at it.