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PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

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  • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

    We'll likely see most of these within the next couple of years (holiday 2014). I'm not worried about it, and I don't think anyone else should be either. The game industry types are creatives, and with the focus moving away from publishers, I think even if the accounting suits insist on nothing-but-sequels, the actual people making the games will break away and do their own thing because now they can.
    Yes, but you're "not worried" for PS4, but when the name changes to Nintendo suddenly you'd combat these same points. It takes a while to generate a new RPG or a new IP and they generally do not get realized at launch - in fact, pretty much everything that hits a game launch that hasn't had the pleasure of being a Mario or Halo game has long since been removed from the memory of gamers.

    Heavenly Sword? Neat for its time but now no one cares. Untold Legends? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Forgotten twice from PSP to PS3. 360 had... Perfect Dark Zero and Kameo (or a Gamecube game on Xbox 360).

    The only reason to even be optimistic about PS4 is the same reason as Wii U- a friendlier environment for indies, but if Sony thinks indies are going to pledge exclusives after seeing Sony allow thangamecompany to go into debt during their exclusivity deal with The Journey, they can think again. There's no incentive to be exclusive. I don't think their current approach is any healthier than how Nintendo or MS have handled it on Wii and 360.

    I'm cynical toward the industry because there's good reason to be. This industry is still young, but its getting to the point where it needs to have its spirit broken. There's just so much unregulated bullshit that's allowed to go out its practically a mirror image of the music industry 15 years ago. I'm hoping that Kickstarters and a greater environment for indies is the swift kick in the ass big publishers need - but the destruction of the F2P model at the hands of EA, UbiSoft and Square-Enix shows me they can still worm their way into anything and twist it to suit their purposes.

    Now because that worked so well for them, you're seeing microtransactions become a part of every future EA game. Just like co-op or multiplayer are forced into every other game whether its needed or not. Online-only games where you're never alone and must play with others is a big, wet dream for a lot of big publishers now.

    Shortsighted? Totally. But the fuckers at Crytek are already salavating over the idea of twisting the structure of a game like Dark Souls to their own ends to eradicate offline single-player. The fact that only 30% of consoles are even constantly connected to the internet is not a thought in their heads, much less the disparity in the quality of online connections - as evidenced by Sony themselves, who are building an entire business strategy around something there's no real market for in Gaikai. Sure, OnLive is around, but not without great sacrifice.

    It boggles my mind that Skyrim can sell like six million and we have CEOs that act like its a fad that's just going to go away.

    There is plenty of destructive influence in the industry left for big third parties to wield. They're not going to give up on their business models until they're dragged into the real future kicking and screaming - just like the record industry.

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    • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

      Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
      Yes, but you're "not worried" for PS4, but when the name changes to Nintendo suddenly you'd combat these same points.
      I'm not worried for PS4 because Sony has a track record of creating new IP constantly, and the PS4 architecture appears to make third party developers happy - which means their new IPs will also appear there. Motorstorm, LittleBigPlanet, Uncharted, inFamous, and Heavy Rain were all created in the PS3 era of gaming, and we still have two more new Sony IPs in The Last of Us and Beyond: Two Souls still to be released, and that's not even mentioning the new Sony IPs that didn't do so well like Heavenly Sword, MAG and Lair. This past generation also saw the creation of many new 3rd party IPs like Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Mirror's Edge, and Darksiders. I haven't even started mentioning major downloadable titles either, just the disc-based stuff.

      I'm not "down on" Nintendo for choosing to reinvent their franchises instead of focusing on creating new IPs. What worries me is that they saw the success of New Super Mario Brothers and basically decided to cash in and do as little as possible because they felt that's what people wanted. Only now do they realize that releasing yet another iteration to launch their new console wasn't exactly the breakthrough they needed. People are frankly tired of that formulation of the franchise right now, and who can blame them? It's OK to reinvent, but you have to reinvent, not rehash. They need more Kid Icarus Uprising, not more New Super Mario Brothers.

      This is especially important for Nintendo because they do not have the sort of 3rd party support that Sony and Microsoft currently enjoy, and it doesn't look like that's going to change any time soon. Right now, the Wii U is still getting some lip service because PS3 and 360 versions of games are still being made. This is analogous to 2006-2007, when PS2 versions of games meant that Wii versions would typically also get made. As soon as PS2 support stopped, Wii support started drying up, and I fully expect the Wii U to suffer a similar fate because of its mediocre hardware. Even if you assume that a downport would be feasible, no multiplatform owner is going to buy the Wii U version of a game if they own one of the new boxes from Sony or Microsoft, particularly if they're coming in as a PSN or Xbox Live user with existing friends and trophy/cheevos to maintain. That leaves a small market for the Wii U version of those games, and will likely cause those downports to suffer in quality due to developers and publishers not getting a good return on the investment. Lower quality downports will cause even fewer sales, and the feedback cycle continues.

      We saw it on the Wii, and we'll see it again on the Wii U unless Nintendo can turn things around within the next 8 months and get enough of a foothold install base that is willing to buy Wii U versions of PC/PS/Xbox multiplatform games to make it worth the time for developers to downport. I don't see how they're going to manage that, but maybe you can enlighten me?

      I'm cynical toward the industry because there's good reason to be. This industry is still young, but its getting to the point where it needs to have its spirit broken.
      The industry is changing. Consumers are shifting their habits, and all of the console makers need to be on top of their games (literally and figuratively) to stay pertinent. That's why we saw all those studio closures in the past five years, as developers learned these lessons the hard way. It's why so many developers have moved on to mobile platforms, and why I view developer excitement for the PS4 positively. A game console is only as good as the games it can play (see: Vita for a stark example of great hardware with insufficient software).

      The fact that only 30% of consoles are even constantly connected to the internet is not a thought in their heads, much less the disparity in the quality of online connections - as evidenced by Sony themselves, who are building an entire business strategy around something there's no real market for in Gaikai. Sure, OnLive is around, but not without great sacrifice.
      I think you're making a lot of incorrect assumptions here. Where is your 30% figure coming from?

      According to this survey back in April 2010, Wii internet connectivity was 54%, Xbox 360 was 73%, and PS3 was 78%. That number can only have gone up in the past couple of years, as more and more homes are connected to broadband.

      The fact that Netflix accounts for 25% of all internet traffic in North America as of 2011, and that gaming consoles combine to account for 66% of that total Netflix traffic certainly hasn't escaped the notice of the console manufacturers. Why else do you think Nintendo tried to make such a big deal about their TVii app for Wii U?

      Granted, these figures are for North America, but NA isn't really the best region in the world for internet connectivity, either.

      As for Gaikai, I've already said I have no idea where Sony is trying to take that service. If it were up to me, I'd use it as an optional instant-on demo streaming service to avoid having to download 4GB demo payloads, and it sounds like that's at least part of Sony's strategy, but hardly something worth paying $380M for.


      Icemage

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      • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

        Well, they said that you'd be able to download games and be able to play them in small segments as the download progressed, which I thought was amazing.

        Ultimately though, for Gaikai and everything else (not just Sony but I mean in general, especially with how games are becoming increasingly impressive and resource intensive) to be a major hit, services like Google's Fiber have GOT to become the industry standard, and just an amazing option for a lucky few. There's actually a serious petition going forward right now (which I'm glad I signed) to push for bringing them to Canada. ROGERS, Bell & Shaw will probably all fight tooth & nail to block them should Google actually attempt anything (and/or the CRTC even hears them out) but still, I want my epic 1 gigabit uncapped bandwidth internet damn it. I'll *gladly* pay the $300 installation fee to help set it all up. $70/month is more than I'm paying now, but the lack of overuse charges will cover that. Plus, it's 1 GB up/down... that alone, worth it right there.

        I'm amazed that more people aren't pushing for this, Google is sitting on a potential gold mine with that service.
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        • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

          To underscore my point about 3rd party support, see this report that Crysis 3 for Wii U is now cancelled because of lack of support between EA and Nintendo.

          Nintendo needs to stop this sort of thing from happening or the Wii U is going to get pummeled by the PS4 and next Xbox. A price cut isn't a good idea unless they want to never ever release new hardware again (why would anyone buy new Nintendo hardware at launch if the last two consoles had severe price cuts within months of release?).


          Icemage

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          • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

            Interesting, Crystek said a few months before launch they had no plans for Crysis 3 on Wii U, now they suddenly have a port they could do?

            Oh, and you should check his follow-up statement to the Wii U question:

            Going forward with free-to-play support, as I said, I believe in a future where we have to get away from the single-player mindset. You have to be together with your friends from day one, from the first title screen. That philosophy is not in embedded in the console generations. The console generations are very much in the same kind of traditional, “I play by myself, then I meet my friends somewhere at a certain point in the game” mindset. On GFACE, as I said in the presentation, the only place where you’re alone is on the login screen. Once you’re logged in, you’re in a realtime ecosystem. When they’re online, you can interact and do all kinds of stuff with your friends
            I guess when he's reading a book, he wants other people reading it with him and talking about it, rather than reading for his own enjoyment to escape from the world and other people.

            Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 03-02-2013, 10:53 PM.

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            • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

              I'm putting it down to Jim Sterling wanting to make his videos entertaining more than anything but he does massively contradict himself at the end when talking about Saints Row 3's Co-Op being optional. The majority of Co-Op options in games have been just that: optional.

              He also completely missed out on that most people who play Co-Op play with friends and not total strangers which is the main problem. Friends won't care if you're bad at the game and are more likely to say "Okay this is what you did wrong and this is what you need to do to improve". A complete stranger is a lot more likely to scream out a bunch of expletives as though his cat is tap dancing on his keyboard because how likely is he to see you again?

              There's also plenty of multiplayer only games that do have single player options. Team Fortress 2, DoTA 2, Pay Day The Heist, Left for Dead, Killing Floor, Counter Strike etc all have options to play alone with bots. Is there really anything wrong to have an option for me to invite a friend to play say Skyrim with me? The Dovahkin was never alone and had allies, followers and travelling companions, why can't a friend come in and roleplay one of those?
              Rahal Gerrant - Balmung - 188 DRK
              Reiko Takahashi
              - Balmung - 182 AST, 191 BLM, 182 SCH, 188 SMN
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              • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

                I am all for making games Co-op optional, I will be honest when I heard Dead Space 3 had co-op, I was kind of mad, but after playing the game, I can see how it truly was optional, I missed out on 3 or so CO-OP only missions, but eh *shrugs* The game still had me on the edge of my seat through out the game.

                Games like Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls, could be a lot better with optional 2-player co-op
                -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

                  ME needs to be made into an MMO at some point. And the Geth had damnwell better be playable (otherwise I'd go Turian)
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                  • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

                    Why can't we think about online connectivity in creative ways?

                    Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, Persona 4 Golden and dozens of 3DS games use online and other means of connectivity in ways that let me mingle with other players without actually hearing, seeing or playing with them. Dragons Dogma lets me recruit pawns created by other players. So long as I'm undead in Dark Souls, it an offline affair with ghosts of other players walking by and messages scrawled on the walls and floors by them. Fire Emblem: Awakening lets me challenge their custom teams and collect other players' Tactician characters by way of Streetpass battles and I have a few in my ranks already. Catherine, Persona 4 Golden and The Walking Dead collect polling data so you can see what other players said, decided or what you could do on a given day in one of those games. I can even get the ethereal "moral support" of other players in P4G to recover some HP and SP by tapping SOS.

                    It does not have to always be the option of someone logging on to play with me. Fuck that. If you want to tell me social features and online connectivity are the future - at least have some creativity and think outside the box. Innovate it. Co-op is just another vanilla gameplay feature riddled with mediocrity. A game like Elder Scrolls or Fallout, even GTA would be better served by any one of those asymmetrical, anonymous online features I just listed than fucking co-op.

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                    • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

                      Originally posted by Malacite View Post
                      ME needs to be made into an MMO at some point. And the Geth had damnwell better be playable (otherwise I'd go Turian)
                      No. Just no. ME lives or dies by the choices you make affecting the universe around you. Can't do that in an MMO because other players may be making different choices. That's why ME3 is such a terrible finale to the series; because it fails in this very basic task of extending player choice.

                      Please don't give EA any more shitty ideas than they already have, ktthx. I'd like to at least keep the option of playing single player in story-driven games.


                      Icemage

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                      • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

                        ?????????????????????????????????????

                        That's all well and true for the games so far, but why not an MMO? The ME universe is way more interesting than Star Wars and is practically begging for one. I don't see how an MMO would infringe on what you talked about there, unless for some dumb reason they stopped making anything else except MMOs.

                        Besides you know damn well it's only a matter of time before they do. I think Bioware's just trying to milk all they can out of SWtoR first.
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                        • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

                          Originally posted by Malacite View Post
                          ?????????????????????????????????????

                          That's all well and true for the games so far, but why not an MMO? The ME universe is way more interesting than Star Wars and is practically begging for one. I don't see how an MMO would infringe on what you talked about there, unless for some dumb reason they stopped making anything else except MMOs.
                          Saying that something is better than Star Wars for an MMO isn't saying much. The only thing the Star Wars universe had going for it in terms of being an MMO is a very rabid fanbase. The actual universe itself does not lend itself well to any sort of multiplayer game balance (Jedi and Sith are inherently unbalanced in the canon lore for SW, which means most games set in the universe that feature them will be unbalanced - and probably not fun as a result). More than anything else, this fundamental flaw is what caused SW Galaxies and also The Old Republic, to suck as much as they do.

                          As for Mass Effect itself as an MMO property, it doesn't suffer from as many problems intrinsically as Star Wars does, but I frankly don't trust EA/Bioware to not screw it up. They'd have to do some sort of Deep Space 9-like setting shift to keep it away from areas touched on by the main single player campaigns, or set it in a different time frame to keep continuity. And if they did that, would it still be Mass Effect as fans would expect?

                          Besides you know damn well it's only a matter of time before they do. I think Bioware's just trying to milk all they can out of SWtoR first.
                          I don't really care what Bioware does or doesn't do at this point until they can show me they can still produce something compelling. Mass Effect 3, SW: The Old Republic, and Dragon Age II have not exactly gone as well as planned.


                          Icemage

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                          • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

                            I agree with you on that last point.

                            I got enough MMO with FFXIV right now anyway, but in the future I'd like to see either a Mass Effect or Star Ocean MMo - either one.
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                            • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

                              Originally posted by Malacite View Post
                              Star Ocean MMO
                              Yes fucking please.

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                              • Re: PlayStation Meeting Feb. 20: See the future

                                Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                                Why can't we think about online connectivity in creative ways?

                                Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, Persona 4 Golden and dozens of 3DS games use online and other means of connectivity in ways that let me mingle with other players without actually hearing, seeing or playing with them. Dragons Dogma lets me recruit pawns created by other players. So long as I'm undead in Dark Souls, it an offline affair with ghosts of other players walking by and messages scrawled on the walls and floors by them. Fire Emblem: Awakening lets me challenge their custom teams and collect other players' Tactician characters by way of Streetpass battles and I have a few in my ranks already. Catherine, Persona 4 Golden and The Walking Dead collect polling data so you can see what other players said, decided or what you could do on a given day in one of those games. I can even get the ethereal "moral support" of other players in P4G to recover some HP and SP by tapping SOS.

                                It does not have to always be the option of someone logging on to play with me. Fuck that. If you want to tell me social features and online connectivity are the future - at least have some creativity and think outside the box. Innovate it. Co-op is just another vanilla gameplay feature riddled with mediocrity. A game like Elder Scrolls or Fallout, even GTA would be better served by any one of those asymmetrical, anonymous online features I just listed than fucking co-op.
                                So even though you repeatedly post about hating Social Networking features, you approve of Social Network inspired features like the stuff found in Dark Souls or P4G, and dismiss completely optional Co-Op because you don't like playing with other players? Even though the entire concept behind multiplayer features is to play it with another person, like a friend?



                                I dislike Achievements but you don't see me dismissing it as a feature in games, I just ignore the little pop up adding points to my virtual penis and carry on since I don't need Achievements telling me when and where I can't do some kind of challenge purely for the fun of it. I also care little for games that can't stand on their own as a single player experience because yes, it is nice to sometimes just sit down and play alone and undisturbed.

                                Just because you don't like optional Co-Op modes, does not mean that people who play games with friends fairly often also do not want to have that option. Wide open sandbox games especially lend themselves to that sort of play without any real tweaks in gameplay. Want to know why GTA IV and Red Dead Redemption are so fun in multiplayer? Because it is you and up to 7 friends just going out there, exploring a world and having fun. Want to know why Survival Multiplayer and Multiplayer Adventure maps on Minecraft are fun? Because you get to work with your friends to build, explore and laugh with each other when the inevitable Creeper explosion happens.

                                And sorry but the "innovations" that you listed? Half the time they aren't worth the extra time. In P4G you can answer 10-15 SOS calls yourself and maybe get 1-2 responses, the most I've gotten is 5 during the weekend. Plus the polling data worries me because I'm concerned that it may lead to unpopular things being cut from future Persona games. Demon/Dark Souls? Most of those messages are pretty useless, 80% of them are troll messages or things people put there because there's probably some Achievement tied to it or something, and the bloodstains, while a useful gimmick are really just that, a gimmick.

                                Then again Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft, and the Gaming Industry in general all to often confuses the words "innovation" and "gimmick".
                                Rahal Gerrant - Balmung - 188 DRK
                                Reiko Takahashi
                                - Balmung - 182 AST, 191 BLM, 182 SCH, 188 SMN
                                Haters Gonna Hate



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