These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adaptable

[Firewind]

Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

Aeni also really does not realise just how big the Indie market is in the EU, especially since PC gaming has been well established in Europe since the 1980's (it didn't get surpassed by console gaming until at least the PS1 era due to how cheap PCs were compared to consoles) and while whole small developer culture is very well engrained. What you have to remember is that the Home Computer was massive in the 80's and developing games for them were incredibly cheap due to floppy discs and cassettes. People in Europe basically grew up with this in the 80's and 90's. The European market wasn't even phased by the American market crashing in the early 80's because the industry was already well established and the games had low production values due to it being very cheap to develop on a Home Computer.

Fast forwards to the modern day and a very similar thing is happening for the Indie Market in Europe. Mobile gaming was always huge in Europe before the smartphone but now the market is huge due to it being very similar to how things were in the 80's and 90's. Add in the platforms to push out Indie games like Steam, or Smartphone stores, or XBL and you will be very surprised. Games like Minecraft for example are practically household names on par with the big juggernaut series and AAA games. I actually asked my little sister and her friends on what games her classmates mostly play. The top three were "Zelda Twilight Princess", "Minecraft" and "Angry Birds". You know when a game is popular when you can actually talk with schoolkids about the most fun ways to keep Creepers from blowing your shit up. In the UK, the Video Game Industry has been bigger than the Film Industry since 2009 and has not fallen behind since. Given the much larger proliferation of Smarphones here, even devs like Square-Enix are getting in on the act and releasing their Smartphone games and ports over here and in the rest of Europe too.

I don't think anyone is trying to say stuff like FTL, Mount and Blade, Minecraft or Super Meat Boy will always outsell the huge juggernauts like Call of Duty or FIFA or Mario, what people are saying is that the market is big enough for it to challenge the huge devs in the way that BBQ mentioned. Indie games are giving us games of the same or even better quality of the huge big budget stuff for a much lower price and most importantly, without the game being rushed through due to greed. Imagine if DA2 wasn't rushed through or if FFXIV wasn't rushed and released a year to early to try and beat Cataclysm. What the Indie market is showing the big name devs and publishers is that, you know, rushing games is a bad thing and you don't need a massive budget and A-List celebrity voice actors to sell your game.

[Aeni]

Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

I don't think anyone is trying to say stuff like FTL, Mount and Blade, Minecraft or Super Meat Boy will always outsell the huge juggernauts like Call of Duty or FIFA or Mario, what people are saying is that the market is big enough for it to challenge the huge devs in the way that BBQ mentioned.

The problem here is how do you rise to the top as a small time developer? There was an interesting post over at XDA from a developer whose app was really, really good but never got a single peep and barely managed less than 10,000 downloads with 5 star ratings over a year period - on a free product. Then you have apps like streaming radio that have crappy ratings, but managed well over 500,000 downloads in just a matter of weeks at $9 each. WTF is up with that? These incidents do not resolve with what's being touted here. For every Minecraft, there will likely be hundreds of unmet success stories, and as long as big publishers and big companies continue to hold the media platform under their thumbs, there's not going to be this revolutionary zeitgist that seems to be bandied about here.

Oh, and ask Apple what they really feel their App Store does for small developers. Not that many people actually make enough to leave their day jobs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

You're thinking too small about what this means. No market is about trying to find some little guy you know and like to become a great success like others have. The game still needs to have an actual market and some way of distinguishing itself from the pack before seeing success. You can't just throw a game on iOS and hope it sells, you have to find a way to get noticed. Its what mainstream games have to do all the time.

Arkane can't just release Dishonored and call it a day. Dropping that its a stealth assassin game and mentioning that the staff has Deus Ex and Bioshock on their resumes has this way of instantly putting ideas in gamer's heads of what they can expect. This is the opposite of what Konami did for Blades of Time, which was just release it in the west and not tell anybody. I have a feeling lots of people just make a game, toss it on the App Store and hope it becomes a viral sensation. It doesn't always work. It mostly doesn't.

[Aeni]

Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

You're correct BBQ, and yes, developers need to hustle to get their works noticed. But in a sea of other works, and I mean a literal sea, the guy with connections and a bigger budget is more likely to succeed than the little guy who just started out, despite the fact that he might have something on his hand that many of us, me included, wouldn't mind paying moolah for...

[Armando]

Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

But in a sea of other works, and I mean a literal sea, the guy with connections and a bigger budget is more likely to succeed than the little guy who just started out, despite the fact that he might have something on his hand that many of us, me included, wouldn't mind paying moolah for...

Steam (+Greenlight), Kickstarter, Humble Indie Bundles, The Joystiq Indie Pitch, Facebook/Google+/Twitter, and paid advertisements in said social networks can go a long way. Hell, Steam sales alone will drive quite a few sales from people who can't say no to 50% or 75% discounts on a game that was already relatively cheap. If you're really lucky, you'll get mentioned in Penny Arcade or the TF2 blog.

"Success" is an ambiguous term, and you've made no attempt to clarify your metrics. Is it success if you're just another cog in a big company? Not everyone can get into the studios that make the good games, and only a small handful of those will hold design/director position. Even then, you're still beholden to stakeholders. If you're going for the money angle, an indie game costs a LOT less than the AAA game that blew millions on realistic 3D modelling, motion capture, voice acting, and CGI. You may never come close to the kind of sales numbers a mainstream title gets, but you don't necessarily need to to turn a profit.

The point isn't that it's easy, it's that it's possible. The very idea that a small group of people (or even just one person, if you're talented and have that much time) can make a game without needing any insider connections in the business and put it in the hands of thousands without going through retail is mind-blowing.

[Aeni]

Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

Steam (+Greenlight), Kickstarter, Humble Indie Bundles, The Joystiq Indie Pitch, Facebook/Google+/Twitter, and paid advertisements in said social networks can go a long way. Hell, Steam sales alone will drive quite a few sales from people who can't say no to 50% or 75% discounts on a game that was already relatively cheap. If you're really lucky, you'll get mentioned in Penny Arcade or the TF2 blog.

I don't know about you ... but the vast majority of those that get mentioned are ALREADY an internet "viral" item. In other words, media tend to be slightly behind, or maybe by a lot, the internet "trending" curve. As for ads, I ignore them through NoScript + Firefox ... if everyone did the same, then it's not really working.

"Success" is an ambiguous term, and you've made no attempt to clarify your metrics. Is it success if you're just another cog in a big company? Not everyone can get into the studios that make the good games, and only a small handful of those will hold design/director position. Even then, you're still beholden to stakeholders. If you're going for the money angle, an indie game costs a LOT less than the AAA game that blew millions on realistic 3D modelling, motion capture, voice acting, and CGI. You may never come close to the kind of sales numbers a mainstream title gets, but you don't necessarily need to to turn a profit.

People who go out on their own cannot be compared to those that are willing to work for someone else. The former likes to take risks and the latter tend to be risk adverse. You're comparing apples to oranges. Then there's the third avenue, those that seek independence, but will only do so if they are met with success to compensate for what they will lose. Sometimes, depending on who you're working for, a steady income and some certainty and benefits can go a long way to dissuading the risk taking.

The point isn't that it's easy, it's that it's possible. The very idea that a small group of people (or even just one person, if you're talented and have that much time) can make a game without needing any insider connections in the business and put it in the hands of thousands without going through retail is mind-blowing.

It is possible ... but I'm just trying to ground that possibility in reality. I know many friends who do program as a hobby, key word there, but would not break out into a full fledging "independent" state unless they have certain guarantees. And since the state of the industry is that there are more failures, much more than reported, it's not something that everyone wants to bet their life on.

[Armando]

Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Maybe, but the point isn't the comparison. The point is that there used to be only apples, and we can have oranges now too.

I know many friends who do program as a hobby, key word there, but would not break out into a full fledging "independent" state unless they have certain guarantees. And since the state of the industry is that there are more failures, much more than reported, it's not something that everyone wants to bet their life on.

How is this any different from freelancing in any other profession? It goes without saying that any type of freelance work is risky.

[Aeni]

Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

Maybe, but the point isn't the comparison. The point is that there used to be only apples, and we can have oranges now too.How is this any different from freelancing in any other profession? It goes without saying that any type of freelance work is risky.

Freelancing means you're working for companies on an independent contract, whereas what my friends do for a living is work directly for a company, receiving any benefits and perks that come with it. I thought we were talking about self-employed or small businesses that do their own work and publish their own games (thus, not beholden to the interests and agendas of another company) That's where the risk comes into play ... and not everyone has a business sense nor are they comfortable with having to take on that risk especially if they have so many other obligations to deal with.

[Firewind]

Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

You're thinking too small about what this means. No market is about trying to find some little guy you know and like to become a great success like others have. The game still needs to have an actual market and some way of distinguishing itself from the pack before seeing success. You can't just throw a game on iOS and hope it sells, you have to find a way to get noticed. Its what mainstream games have to do all the time.

Arkane can't just release Dishonored and call it a day. Dropping that its a stealth assassin game and mentioning that the staff has Deus Ex and Bioshock on their resumes has this way of instantly putting ideas in gamer's heads of what they can expect. This is the opposite of what Konami did for Blades of Time, which was just release it in the west and not tell anybody. I have a feeling lots of people just make a game, toss it on the App Store and hope it becomes a viral sensation. It doesn't always work. It mostly doesn't.

Actually Japanese developers are notorious for that. There are a lot of games that would do pretty well given an international release if the dev or publisher could be bothered to market it. Compare the sales of things like Mario and Pokemon that get ads every day over here on TV and are always in magazines (both traditional and electronic) to something like Dark Souls which is a fantastic game that sold well here but would have been a huge hit (especially in the UK where the could have marketed it to the HUGE hack and slash market in the UK like KOEI do with Dynasy Warriors, Square Enix did with Dungeon Siege 3, Nintendo does with Zelda and Sony do with God of War) had the publishers bothered to advertise it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

I think your definition of "hack'n'slash" is just a bit too broad there. Most of what you just listed just has a protagonist with a bladed weapon in common.

If Zelda and Devil May Cry had to fix a television, Link would actually fix the TV, Dante would hit it with his sword and it would somehow fix itself as a result. Devil May Cry emphasizes evasion just as much as combos while DW is more about that combo actually being a bodycount. Dungeon Seige doesn't even know want combos are, its too busy looting the dungeon which you'd think would put it near Zelda, but Link tends to find more purposeful items because he's a utility belt hero like Samus Aran or Batman. Dungeon Siege, Diablo and Torchlight just have you out to find the next best shiny better than the last good shiny you had, which I consider an arms race more than a utility belt hero action game.

Dark Souls is all about survival, armor/weapon/magic builds, defensive play, environmental awareness and being prepared to be killed by the next monster/environmental hazard or player that just happened to invade your game. DMC may be more than happy to kill you, but the rank and file marionette isn't going to drop you in a few hits. It might feel open like Zelda, but environmental hazards outright kill you while Link gets to mulligan that trap so long as he has enough hearts to try again.

Dark Souls would probably have its small cult niche no matter how much marketing went into it. Just look at what a blow dying in FFXI is to some people's self-esteem and now there's a game that revels in murdering you and taking away your chance to recoup your earnings if you die on the way to your last place of death again.

[Firewind]

Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

What I mean is that they got sales by appealing to people of that demographic and people went "Oh wow this is a fun game, I might buy any squeals that come out", rather than actually attempting to compare apples, oranges, pears and venison with each other.