Wii U Discussion

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Its worth pointing out that the GameCube and Wii (and all the prior and current consoles) launched in a different period than where we are now Mal. Wii had a decent amount of launch software and while Zelda helped, lots of it was "casual" stuff and the platform itself was pre-smartphone/tablet like PS3 and 360 both were. The smartphone/tablet market not only widened the casual market more than the Wii had, but the gold rush mentality that followed drastically changed investor expectation, which is why you see games like Megaman X now raped with in-app purchases. We've only just started to see the fallout of that within the last year, the F2P bubble is starting to burst with mobile games and there are disenfranchised indies are moving to Nintendo, Sony and Valve to find a less overcrowded market

With 3DS, Vita and Wii U having all struggled to get off the ground, though, I wouldn't get my hopes up too much about PS4 or the next Xbox taking the world by storm just yet. The disruption that Apple and others have caused hasn't completely blown over yet. Plus AAA publishers haven't been without their own recklessness and we've just started to see the AAA approach come apart at the seams.

This is the world Wii U, PS4 and the next Xbox are launching into and so far its not all that pretty.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Wii U Discussion

What, making gimmicky hardware that turns me off from purchasing any of their systems?

Nintendo might not need to go third party, but they could do with some change in focus.

2003 was the middle of the era in which Nintendo tried conforming.

They soundly lost in that generation, IIRC.

[Malacite]

Re: Wii U Discussion

It's actually not just the overcrowding, apparently MS is incredibly frustrating/difficult to work with for Indie developers, and they're flocking to PS4 in droves. Not just because of the hardware, but Sony's being more open/friendly if you will.


Microsoft's Next Move | Bonus Round Full Episodes | GameTrailers (covers mostly xbox but there's a segment in there where they mention Indie games)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

It's actually not just the overcrowding, apparently MS is incredibly frustrating/difficult to work with for Indie developers, and they're flocking to PS4 in droves. Not just because of the hardware, but Sony's being more open/friendly if you will.

I'll believe the "flocking" to PS4 when I see it. I'm very sure its going to be better on the PS4 than PS3 and 360 just on the basics but its too early to call how the indie thing with shake out until MS does say something. The ball is in their court now, the silence is the only think making their future look murky and that continued silence may be what costs them because Nintendo and Sony are making all the right moves toward appealing to indies.

Right now Sony, Nintendo and Valve all encourage a healthier environment just by waiving authentication fees and letting indies set their own prices and sales. Basically, this is done elsewhere and Sony's just screaming about it the loudest right now because the Vita could really use the help. Its still great news, though.

Also worth noting Sony and Nintendo are both supporting Unity and Nintendo also talked up Nintendo Web Framework at GDC, which seemed to be very well-received.

Nintendo hopes to win app and web devs to Wii U with JavaScript�tools | Polygon

[Icemage]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Alright, I can respect that. But in that case, isn't the Wii U right up your alley? It just seems to me like people make a bigger deal about changes to input methods than changes to game design when they have the same end-result.

Blizzard does something retarded like RMAH and online-only Diablo III? Benefit of the doubt, still buying it, and I'll even put up with it for a while, and continue to play even after it starts to set in that this is a real problem.
Don't like a Nintendo game? No sale. If they just got rid of that gimmicky hardware, I would've liked and bought it.

I don't think that's fair.

Speaking for myself, I've been openly critical of Nintendo's approach since they unveiled the Wii U console. I think it's bad for Nintendo, bad for the game industry in general, and honestly doesn't serve consumers either. I don't hate Nintendo for being Nintendo. I am disappointed that they make some very myopic choices when it comes to cultivating a customer base, and the Wii U unfortunately puts all of those bad decisions together in one place.

It's not a bad console (at least not bad in the way of a Virtual Boy or NEO GEO), but it's definitely an answer to a question that few people have asked. People simply aren't that interested in a tablet/console hybrid. They already own consoles, and they already own tablets, and the Wii U just sort of sits in the middle, neither fish nor fowl, and hasn't proven to the masses why it should be in their home. The only thing causing it to sell any units whatsoever is the Nintendo brand name on it. If that console had been released by any other company, it would have sank like a stone, instead of just sinking slowly.

The honest truth, since we're ranting about things like DRM, is that I think Nintendo and Apple have done far more damage to the gaming market than any amount of DRM or shady DLC practices. Nintendo pushed motion gaming on us and tried to convince us it was the Next Best Thing, which caused Microsoft and Sony to follow suit to varying degrees. Apple for their part have caused mobile gaming to devolve into a wasteland of $1 and freemium games that suck out your soul unless you pay far more than the games are actually worth.

Right now, Nintendo's biggest problem is that Iwata started believing his own BS about how interface innovation was the future. The Wii took the world by storm because we had never seen a simple mass market motion control device before. It was new to pretty much everyone, and that is what made it sell like hotcakes before everyone realized that waggle actually didn't produce very many good gameplay ideas and wasn't useful for much of anything else. The Wii U doesn't get the benefit of the doubt because we have millions of tablets, and millions of HD consoles already in the wild and still being sold. It's not "new" to anyone.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Nintendo pushed motion gaming on us and tried to convince us it was the Next Best Thing, which caused Microsoft and Sony to follow suit to varying degrees.

You really think this is worse than taking games and forcing them to be online-only even when you have no intention of playing with other people? It's not like Nintendo's holding devs at gunpoint to use motion controls. If you want to put your indie platformer on the Wii or Wii U, nobody's going to force you to include waggling or whatever.

The Wii U doesn't get the benefit of the doubt because we have millions of tablets, and millions of HD consoles already in the wild and still being sold. It's not "new" to anyone.

But Diablo III and SimCity get a pass because...?

[Icemage]

Re: Wii U Discussion

You really think this is worse than taking games and forcing them to be online-only even when you have no intention of playing with other people? It's not like Nintendo's holding devs at gunpoint to use motion controls. If you want to put your indie platformer on the Wii or Wii U, nobody's going to force you to include waggling or whatever.

Motion waggle or DRM being offline have similar effects: they make a game suck and basically make it unplayable.

DRM has infected a few high profile titles, but it hasn't yet ruined a large chunk of the market; not to the point that motion controls have (how many games have "Better with Kinect!" slapped on them?). More to the point, there has been serious pushback against online DRM. Every time someone has tried to do it with something that isn't account-based like an MMO, they've gotten burned over it. I can't wait to hear the whining when the SimCity servers eventually get taken down, for instance.

But Diablo III and SimCity get a pass because...?

They don't? I didn't buy either game. Just because DRM sucks, and always online sucks, doesn't mean motion controls also don't suck. Yes?


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: Wii U Discussion

But Diablo III and SimCity get a pass because...?

Millions of people just roll over and buy Activision and EA's products regardless of any complaints they (supposedly) have? (Speaking as someone who did buy D3 regardless purely because I wanted to play the campaign and see how it all ended - the shitty state of the game and the multi-player was kind of an afterthought.) I still refuse to buy CoD (again, only done so in the past as gifts for my brother, which conveniently also lets me get 1st hand experience with them to see for myself if they've improved; thankfully he's come to the same conclusion as I have finally and said F it to that series) and I'm on the fence about BF4.

[Armando]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Motion waggle or DRM being offline have similar effects: they make a game suck and basically make it unplayable.

Yes, but again, Nintendo's not forcing anyone to use motion controls. Why is it that people malign Nintendo specifically instead of the people making shitty motion-controlled games? Nobody jumps down Sony's throat for the amount of shovelware the PS2 had. Who cares if there were 1000 bad titles if there were still 30 good ones to choose from?

The reason I bring up DIII and SimCity at all is that Nintendo always seems to have a legion of haters at the wings ready to jump in and prop up straw men about hardware and gimmicks and casuals. You don't see that kind of fervent trolling against Blizzard and Maxim from the people that didn't buy their shit even though they ARE directly resposible for the bullshit they did to their games. It's like the mere existence of a console they don't like drives some people insane.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

The honest truth, since we're ranting about things like DRM, is that I think Nintendo and Apple have done far more damage to the gaming market than any amount of DRM or shady DLC practices.

You're two days too late to be saying stuff like this.

[Icemage]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Yes, but again, Nintendo's not forcing anyone to use motion controls. Why is it that people malign Nintendo specifically instead of the people making shitty motion-controlled games?

Force is not the right word. They pushed motion control as the evolution of gaming. Their blue ocean strategy deliberately brought people in to make a profit at the cost of dumbing down gaming; they were so very proud of doing so.

In truth, the Wiimote is terrible as a standard controller. What else were developers to do other than use motion/pointer controls if they wanted to be on the Wii? Forced is the wrong word. Left with no other options though? I think that shoe fits.

That's not to say there aren't bad motion controlled games outside of Nintendo's sphere of influence (see: Steel Batallion: Heavy Armor), but the whole reason that abortion of a game exists is because of what Nintendo envisioned as the future of gaming.

Nobody jumps down Sony's throat for the amount of shovelware the PS2 had. Who cares if there were 1000 bad titles if there were still 30 good ones to choose from?

Yes, but the difference is that the PS2 actually had good controls and a metric ton of awesome games to show for it.

If you remove Nintendo-published games from the Wii catalog, what's left?

EDIT:

To bring this back to the Wii U, my view is that the Wii U suffers from the same conceit that the Wii did, only this time without the hype train behind it. Iwata and company thought they could tap into some sort of hidden reserve of new customers by bringing a "new" interface without showing any significant reasons why the new interface would improve their gaming experience. The issue is that they're totally wrong, and no one cares about the GamePad because they've seen it before, and probably already own a similar* device.

* "Siimilar" in this context = whatever facet of the GamePad/Wii U would attract them in the first place. If it's a touchscreen, they likely already own a tablet. If it's HD visuals, they've probably long since owned a PS360 and/or PC. Those markets are already largely saturated, and the combination of HDTV gaming + tablet touchscreen doesn't bring a whole lot new to the table in terms of expanding that market.


Icemage

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Wii U Discussion

The reason I bring up DIII and SimCity at all is that Nintendo always seems to have a legion of haters at the wings ready to jump in and prop up straw men about hardware and gimmicks and casuals.

One thousand times this.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Wii U Discussion

One thousand times this.

And Nintendo has several doze legions of apologists jumping to decry any criticism leveled against their beloved company. Case in point: BBQ.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

That's not to say there aren't bad motion controlled games outside of Nintendo's sphere of influence (see: Steel Batallion: Heavy Armor), but the whole reason that abortion of a game exists is because of what Nintendo envisioned as the future of gaming.

This is like saying RE6 is RE4's fault and yet RE6 had dozens of bad ideas of its own while RE4's flaws were few. No one is really shaking Shinji Mikami down for an explanation of where Resident Evil went wrong. He didn't fuck it up.

On the whole Nintendo's implementation of motion control was better than what other developers tried. These games have been out there for years now as examples and many developers just don't seem to want to follow those functional applications. While other third parties are scratching their heads to figure out GamePad implementation, Straight Right and Eidos Montreal nailed how to implement it with Deus Ex: Human Revolution: Director's Cut. That game is a blueprint for how it should be done for a game like Borderlands or Bioshock or whatever.

Honestly, I think the problem is just developer laziness and that's something even PC gamers have to put up with from large third parties from less-than-optimal user interfaces to full controller, keyboard and mouse support, mod support or even dedicated servers for crying out loud!

Yet no one complains about the PC being a such unique and special snowflake even though its sometimes treated that way...

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Wii U Discussion

And Nintendo has several doze legions of apologists jumping to decry any criticism leveled against their beloved company. Case in point: BBQ.

I count one BBQ to at least two cid and Icemages. Nintendo has a battalion at best.