Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

[jinxhand]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

* Carbon copy characters aren't always lazy versions, but they can be sometimes, as in the case of the original MK palette-swap ninjas. I'll have to respectfully disagree and say Falco and Fox are close enough to identical in terms of gameplay in Smash as their differences are very minor. Dr. Mario isn't a carbon copy, but what he is, is a throw-away character, in the sense of "a similar character who brings little that is useful to the table in terms of tactics".

Sub and Scorpion were definitely palette swaps indeed, and despite the actual differences (combos, tactics, etc) they're still equally weak. Maybe UMK3's H.Smoke and Scorpion would be a better example of what I was trying to convey. Regarding SSBM, I thought Falco/Fox were originally farther apart in tier listing and eventually were placed literally next to each other over time. I'm not too savvy on the other pairs other than Link and Young Link, and I believe they're equally low tier from what I remember.

* I mentioned before that I think Radec is the only character that feels like a one-trick pony in Battle Royale because of his dedicated projectile/keep-away game, though his grenade moves are pretty neat from a tactical point of view, giving him close quarters crowd control without turning him into a melee monster.

I think in 4 player matches he shines though. As for being a tourney-viable character, maybe not so much if the rules end up being 1v1.

* I'm equally skeptical of the long-term viability of only getting kills via super attacks (especially as you can't deliberately choose what level of super to use), but that's something that can easily be fixed in a future installment - and what we've got is serviceable, if nowhere near perfect. If AP generation were faster, if you could choose which super to use (via R2 + face button, perhaps), and if you could stock maybe 5 levels of AP, I'd be much happier with that setup.

I simply wish Sony took the Small Arms approach and just gave everyone a health meter that once was depleted you'd die, only to respawn somewhere on the screen until all your lives are gone (usually you start off with 5 lives). The meter would have been cool, but then if winning only required you to deplete the opponent's health in anyway possible (chip damage, unblockables, combos, etc), a ton of balancing would be needed. I think matches would be quicker and more fun though. I also wonder how things would fair out if Sony decided to add a "tag" function that worked like the tag function did on Soul Calibur 4.

If it were my choice though, I'd overhaul the game and make it more on the lines of Capcom Fighting All Stars, where it's a simple 1v1, but there would be enough freedom for Sony to add their little quirks to the game without making it too zany or broken.

Lastly, I honestly wished Sony hired top players that weren't just primarily Capcom game players (Seth Killian, Cl0ckw0rk). They might or might have not had a major say in the way the game is made, but this game feels too much like Sony's attempt at making a Capcom fighter using a Nintendo template...

[Armando]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

* Melee's items weren't typically ridiculous, though the Hammer is pretty powerful on some stages and the Tomato is a game-changer sometimes.

Besides Maximum Tomato there was also the Heart Container (100% vs the tomato's 50%). Home Run Bat was absurdly powerful when thrown and could kill easily. Beam Sword would almost always kill when thrown at an off-stage opponent because it hits them downwards. Bob-Omb was almost always an instant kill if you landed it. Starman needs no explanation. Mushrooms were very destructive. EDIT: But I do agree that the situation is even worse in Brawl.

I'll have to respectfully disagree and say Falco and Fox are close enough to identical in terms of gameplay in Smash as their differences are very minor.

I'd like to present a visual rebuttal.

Lasers fired by Fox: 0

Lasers fired by Falco: 50+

Plus, like I said, almost all their moves behave different. What kills for Falco doesn't kill for Fox, their Reflectors combo in different directions, they jump and run differently...in short, a Fox player can't pick up Falco and immediately kick ass or vice-versa. On the contrary, I find it's harder to make the switch because you have to fight the impulse to play like the other character.

Regarding SSBM, I thought Falco/Fox were originally farther apart in tier listing and eventually were placed literally next to each other over time.

Falco was High Tier in my day, not Top.

[Kailea]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

I normal play with a semi item layout with friends, but online no items. with friends we would turn all items off but a select few, and set the spawn rate to low

[Icemage]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

But I do agree that the situation is even worse in Brawl.

If nothing else, the Final Smash silliness makes all other seemingly overpowered items seem tame by comparison.

Plus, like I said, almost all their moves behave different. What kills for Falco doesn't kill for Fox, their Reflectors combo in different directions, they jump and run differently...in short, a Fox player can't pick up Falco and immediately kick ass or vice-versa. On the contrary, I find it's harder to make the switch because you have to fight the impulse to play like the other character.

Mmm... the moves may be different, but they're still more or less the same moves. That doesn't mean that they aren't played optimally in a different way at a competitive level, but that's more a result of their shared basic move set being pretty good in the first place. To be quite honest, considering none of the Smash Brothers games were "intended" to be tournament-worthy in the first place, I'd chalk that up more to blind luck than any deliberate design on Nintendo's part. If Falco and Fox were mid/low tier, no one would care about the relatively minor differences in their move sets.

At any rate, the point is that the whole Good / Evil Cole thing is a bit overstated. It sticks out like a sore thumb because the roster is "only" 20 characters in Battle Royale, but they honestly do play differently, though I suspect neither one would rate higher than mid-tier in 1v1 so it hardly matters.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

That doesn't mean that they aren't played optimally in a different way at a competitive level, but that's more a result of their shared basic move set being pretty good in the first place.

Well, Roy has the same moves (and at the same speed) as Marth but his moves do all the wrong things. Fox/Falco didn't necessarily have to end up in the same tier, it just turned out that way.

To be quite honest, considering none of the Smash Brothers games were "intended" to be tournament-worthy in the first place, I'd chalk that up more to blind luck than any deliberate design on Nintendo's part.

I'm not so sure about this. The original Smash Bros started out as a generic fighting game Iwata and Sakurai were developing in their spare time. Melee is strangely polished for a party game and Sakurai said in interviews he ran himself ragged during development. I think Brawl is the only game where they deliberately tried to move away from competitive play because Melee was too hard for newbies to get into - but that had more to do with people discovering the wavedash, which is an exploit of the physics engine, than Nintendo making Melee too hard by design.

[Firewind]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

I swear that my little sister and I are the only people that play with random stages and items on full because you know, items are part of the fun of the game. Taking them out of the game and just playing on 1 stage on one game mode? Why don't you just play LoL or whatever DoTA clone the twats of the internet are playing this week and stop boring me?

I never got the point of sucking all of the fun out of the game because people can't handle random elements being tossed into it. I'm sick of people like that online. They are the same people that play Mario Kart without items and only with bikes, or those people that would only ever play Rainbow Six Vegas on Attack/Defend, in Calypso Casino with no explosives, rifles, shotguns, LMGs, flashbangs, smoke or grenades on the Attacking side. They're also the same people that bitch at you for switching pokemon (AKA one of the core game mechanics that the entire battle system is balanced around) in Pokemon too.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

Well, Roy has the same moves (and at the same speed) as Marth but his moves do all the wrong things. Fox/Falco didn't necessarily have to end up in the same tier, it just turned out that way.I'm not so sure about this. The original Smash Bros started out as a generic fighting game Iwata and Sakurai were developing in their spare time. Melee is strangely polished for a party game and Sakurai said in interviews he ran himself ragged during development. I think Brawl is the only game where they deliberately tried to move away from competitive play because Melee was too hard for newbies to get into - but that had more to do with people discovering the wavedash, which is an exploit of the physics engine, than Nintendo making Melee too hard by design.

And now they have the Tekken people working on the next one, so I'm pretty sure it will go back the other way. Sakurai were already pondering a new direction well before that was finalized and Iwata threw in that extra fun challenge of announcing a 3DS version to go alongside it. at E32011. Hopefully it will amount to more than a cross-platform compatible version and have some 3DS-specific content.

So far all we know is the roster isn't inching over the current cap, which probably just means some characters are being phased out and some new ones phased in. I think Reyn from Xenoblade is a requirement and some Namco characters are also a given. Probably reasonable to also assume Solid Snake and Sonic are returning seeing as Kojima was all "here's Raiden" for PSABR. Its actually kinda fun he still uses Raiden as a burn all these years later, though there is some cross-promotion there.

Also, this is obligatory.

[jinxhand]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

I swear that my little sister and I are the only people that play with random stages and items on full because you know, items are part of the fun of the game. Taking them out of the game and just playing on 1 stage on one game mode? Why don't you just play LoL or whatever DoTA clone the twats of the internet are playing this week and stop boring me?

I never got the point of sucking all of the fun out of the game because people can't handle random elements being tossed into it. I'm sick of people like that online. They are the same people that play Mario Kart without items and only with bikes, or those people that would only ever play Rainbow Six Vegas on Attack/Defend, in Calypso Casino with no explosives, rifles, shotguns, LMGs, flashbangs, smoke or grenades on the Attacking side. They're also the same people that bitch at you for switching pokemon (AKA one of the core game mechanics that the entire battle system is balanced around) in Pokemon too.

From a competitive standpoint, I understand why certain elements in a particular game are omitted. Some things are just ridiculously overpowered, that even people with a basic understanding of the game can easily win with little to no effort whatsoever. Some elements are beyond random that it runs the competitiveness of the game (i.e.- the moving danger zones in DOA4 [cheetah, raptors]), so they have to be removed.

If you're just having fun though, then of course none of that stuff should matter. I remember joining some Unreal Tournament rooms where the only weapon people used was the pulse rifle and nothing else. I hate things like that. The same thing happened with CoD2. Everyone stayed with a sniper rifle, because that's all you needed to win, even though it was possible to win with other weapons. Things like that made me quit the game entirely.

Yeah people like the ones you mentioned don't really want a "true" challenge imo. They're lazy. Honestly, that's why games like CoD, UT, UMvC3, SF4, many rpg series, and even platformers have gotten dumbed down over the years. People wanna get on easy street and benefit from it. That's why SF4 plays like a crazy dumbed down version of SF3 with a dash of SFEX2+ (I could write a damn essay on it). Plus, easy mode = more casuals playing = more money = success for 'X company'...

But about PSAS and SSB. I could've sworn the 1st SSB was made as just a fighter, but not as a "serious" fighter. I know the game's status has always been an on-going debate, so much that there's even a yt vid on it:

Hopefully wavedashing makes a return in the next SSB. I really liked that, especially considering how wavedashing in terms of input requirements vary amongst different fighters like Tekken and Marvel.

Does anyone know if there's DLC characters planned for PSAS?

[Armando]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

I never got the point of sucking all of the fun out of the game because people can't handle random elements being tossed into it. I'm sick of people like that online.

There's a difference between competitive play and casual play. I mained Fox on Melee but I spent at least 50% of my casuals using Roy, and he's a terrible fucking character all-around. I lost most matches, but hey, he has teh phires. I have a friend who also played Roy occasionally and in casual Free For Alls and we'd go red and blue and change our nicknames to BILY and JIMY and call ourselves Team Double Dragon. The only thing worse than one Roy is two Roys but we didn't care. We'd also go to really terrible stages like Hyrule Temple just for kicks and see who can keep himself alive at 300+%.

Also, even in tournament play there's a wide selection of stages. Pokemon Stadium is legit, and it's not exactly predictable. DK's stages were also tourney-legal even though there's the occasional Klaptrap that can score instant kills if you're really unlucky. Termina Bay is also legal and it has that turtle island that comes and goes. It all depends on the level and impact of randomness. Only scrubs go to Final Destination blindly - it's nowhere close to being a neutral stage.

The problem comes when you get online and fight anonymous people. Do they want to get better at competitive play or do they want to play casuals? You can't possibly know beforehand.

[jinxhand]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

Some fighters nowadays have rooms with "lobby names", allowing people to guage whether the room is casual or not. Arcana Heart 3 also gives extra info on the lobby, such as the screen size (wide or normal), beginner symbol, and you can literally type your lobby name in. Quick note, screen size is important, because competitively, original is the standard. Widescreen just looks nice on an hdtv, but it actually can affect characters combos and movement within the game. This is something that casuals might not take note of.

I'm not sure what the lobbies look like in Brawl or PSAS, but I hope they start allowing people to see what they're getting into before going online. Brawl online would suck anyway imo due to the Wii being wifi only. Things like that are good for everything but fighters, and mmorpgs, but the only game that "came close" to an mmo was Monster Hunter Tri.

Anyone seriously interested in PSAS might want to check out "Wednesday Night Fights" on the Level Up Live channel on twitch.tv. Here's the link: leveluplive. It's been the first game on the schedule. I'm not sure if they do singles, but I know there has been a bunch of 2v2 going on.

[Melody]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

As far as I am concerned de geso, the main game genre (and forgive me if I am spouting sprinkles and kitten nonsense) but I've seen some pretty hard core lobbies. I play all sorts of consoles. Like for PC for instance I play S4 League and League of Legends where the lobbies are usually gauged by a name or just what character line up is there. Well for the most part, that's how it goes for League of Legends. S4 League will tell you in the name and what type of game it is. Chaser, BR, DM etc etc. Now console games that are fighters like Naruto Ninja Storm 2, UMVC3, Skullgirls. You can't really gauge by how good someone is by just looking, it's the in-game skill that counts. I usually end up rage quitting, de geso in these types of sessions. Because the fight is either, not fun or just too easy and I feel bad. I like that small sense of where both players have a fun fight. Which is what I get when I play Storm 2. Storm Generations was terrible, de geso, but we won't get into that topic, unless you want an angry otaku, de geso.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

If I play a fighter, i name my lobby "FSTEAK" because cool people will get it.

[Raydeus]

Re: Do you think PS All Stars is judged harshly, mew?

XD