Sept. 13th Wii U news stuff

[Icemage]

Re: Sept. 13th Wii U news stuff

I can use anecdotal evidence, too!

MS still retains exclusive publishing rights for Mass Effect on Xbox and Windows. They funded its development and had some of their own folks work on it. If anyone could pry that game loose from MS, I would be EA and even they can't seem to to it so PS3 and Wii could plausibly have a complete trilogy.

Pertinent to this part of the discussion:

Mass Effect Trilogy Compilation Brings All Three Games to Xbox 360, PC This Fall; PS3 Version Coming Later [Update]

What was that about anecdotal evidence again?


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Sept. 13th Wii U news stuff

Pertinent to this part of the discussion:

Mass Effect Trilogy Compilation Brings All Three Games to Xbox 360, PC This Fall; PS3 Version Coming Later [Update]

What was that about anecdotal evidence again?


Icemage

The thing about exclusivity is we never really know what the deals actually are. I suppose with Bioware there was a timed exclusivity of five years.

Still, my point stands since

Bayonetta 2 has Nintendo staff on it.
The Last Story had Nintendo staff on it.
Metal Gear Solid: Twins Snakes had staff on it.

Also interesting that REmake still remains only on Nintendo platforms, though I don't think Nintendo had anyone on that one.

If it were so easy or possible to get these games out of Nintendo's camp - why hasn't it happened? MSGS either had a timed exclusive with Bioware on the original ME or EA was finally able to strike a deal. Those are your most likely answers.

[Malacite]

Re: Sept. 13th Wii U news stuff

Pertinent to this part of the discussion:

Mass Effect Trilogy Compilation Brings All Three Games to Xbox 360, PC This Fall; PS3 Version Coming Later [Update]

What was that about anecdotal evidence again?


Icemage

Figures, if I'd just waited a bit longer to get into ME.... BAH!

[Icemage]

Re: Sept. 13th Wii U news stuff

The thing about exclusivity is we never really know what the deals actually are. I suppose with Bioware there was a timed exclusivity of five years.

Still, my point stands since

Bayonetta 2 has Nintendo staff on it.
The Last Story had Nintendo staff on it.
Metal Gear Solid: Twins Snakes had staff on it.

Also interesting that REmake still remains only on Nintendo platforms, though I don't think Nintendo had anyone on that one.

If it were so easy or possible to get these games out of Nintendo's camp - why hasn't it happened? MSGS either had a timed exclusive with Bioware on the original ME or EA was finally able to strike a deal. Those are your most likely answers.

Oh come on, now you're really reaching. We have a ton of excellent examples of evaporating exclusivity in this generation (Eternal Sonata, Tales of Vesperia, Bioshock, Final Fantasy XIII, No More Heroes, Tekken, L.A. Noire, Epic Mickey, Dead or Alive, and the list goes on and on and on...). The only franchises that are absolutely safe from poaching are ones where the IP is owned by a platform holder. Any others are almost always due to developer bias (Tomonobu Itagaki with Ninja Gaiden and DOA), licensing (Gears of War), or a lack of financial incentive to publish on other platformers (Muramasa... and actually the Gears of War thing could be classified as this as well).

Bayonetta 2, as far as anyone knows, doesn't fall under any of those three. None of the statements about Bayonetta 2 released so far are anything beyond what you'd expect for marketing-speak. Even if they WERE planning on making PS4 and Xbox 720 versions of Bayonetta 2, they certainly wouldn't hint at it for fear of cannibalizing sales via the Osborne Effect. That doesn't mean there isn't some sort of exclusivity tether attached; obviously Nintendo kicked in some cash and resources for development. But Microsoft contributed a ton of money and some developmental know-how toward Tales of Vesperia and we know how THAT story ended up.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Sept. 13th Wii U news stuff

Oh come on, now you're really reaching. We have a ton of excellent examples of evaporating exclusivity in this generation (Eternal Sonata, Tales of Vesperia, Bioshock, Final Fantasy XIII, No More Heroes, Tekken, L.A. Noire, Epic Mickey, Dead or Alive, and the list goes on and on and on...). The only franchises that are absolutely safe from poaching are ones where the IP is owned by a platform holder. Any others are almost always due to developer bias (Tomonobu Itagaki with Ninja Gaiden and DOA), licensing (Gears of War), or a lack of financial incentive to publish on other platformers (Muramasa... and actually the Gears of War thing could be classified as this as well).

Again, show me the port of MGS Twins Snakes, TLS and other games I've listed that just stay in Nintendo's camp. Nintendo got thier people to work on those games for a reason and its the same reason as Bayonetta 2 - to ensure it wouldn't go anywhere. Do you want to make a bet on it not being so? Remember what happened to Taskmage on the Time Mage thing.

You cannot compare the 2006-2008 climate to now. Things have changed again. Back then the rising cost of HD development made many developers wary of signing on for exclusives. Those costs have mostly plateaued. With more exclusives happening between Nintendo and Sony, I would say exclusivity is back in play - or did you miss Sony even buying up exclusivity of third party HD collections like Assassin's Creed recently. That one doesn't even make sense to me, but there you have it to go with KH 1.5 HD's also-nonsensical exclusivity.

Bayonetta 2, as far as anyone knows, doesn't fall under any of those three. None of the statements about Bayonetta 2 released so far are anything beyond what you'd expect for marketing-speak. Even if they WERE planning on making PS4 and Xbox 720 versions of Bayonetta 2, they certainly wouldn't hint at it for fear of cannibalizing sales via the Osborne Effect. That doesn't mean there isn't some sort of exclusivity tether attached; obviously Nintendo kicked in some cash and resources for development. But Microsoft contributed a ton of money and some developmental know-how toward Tales of Vesperia and we know how THAT story ended up.

When has any late port to another platform - and I'm talking by like eight months to a year here, not two or three - ever helped that game's chances on the newest platform?

Never. ME3 and Batman AC Armored Edition are just being trotted out to placate Nintendo, everyone that cared to consume those titles already has. Logic dictates this would also be the case with Bayonetta 2 assuming it were to appear on a Sony or Microsoft console. Games like Darksiders 2 and Tekken Tag Tournament 2 might have seen people hold out for the Wii U versions to see if there were bonuses, which there are. Also,you can't deny that the choice between a version I have to subscribe to XBL to play and a version where I don't isn't a major deciding factor. Those ports are also going to be $50 at launch as opposed to $60 since they're ports. Money saved.

Setting those exceptions aside, Even MGS Twin Snakes and REmake undersold intially because people had already played them, REmake pulled out ahead because it later proved to be a different experience from the original and Director's Cut. MGS: TS proved to be a fairly similar experience with new cinematics. Not exactly enough to inspire huge sales but still something fans seem to want in HD after all these years and Konami won't say why it can't happen. Not even Kojima has an explanation, though he has said he wouldn't want to remake MGS again largely because to remake it today would radically alter what it was. I guess with MGS:TS it was still at a safe distance though it did kind of prove him right.

[Icemage]

Re: Sept. 13th Wii U news stuff

Again, show me the port of MGS Twins Snakes, TLS and other games I've listed that just stay in Nintendo's camp. Nintendo got thier people to work on those games for a reason and its the same reason as Bayonetta 2 - to ensure it wouldn't go anywhere. Do you want to make a bet on it not being so? Remember what happened to Taskmage on the Time Mage thing.

MGS Twin Snakes is a remake of the original MGS using the MGS2 engine; it's closer to KH Final Remix or FFXII International than a separate game on its own, so I don't really think anyone has cared to jump through all the legal hoops to port it (least of all those numbskulls at Konami).

You cannot compare the 2006-2008 climate to now.

You really need to learn how to quit while you're ahead. I went and named a bunch of games from 2006 (Eternal Sonata) to 2012 (DOA), so I don't know where you're getting this 2008 figure from... and there are a lot more games I could still mention. For that matter, your best example is Twin Snakes, which was produced in 2004, so... OK? How are over a dozen HD games from the past six years less pertinent than one remake from eight years ago that's not even an HD remake?

Things have changed again. Back then the rising cost of HD development made many developers wary of signing on for exclusives. Those costs have mostly plateaued. With more exclusives happening between Nintendo and Sony, I would say exclusivity is back in play - or did you miss Sony even buying up exclusivity of third party HD collections like Assassin's Creed recently. That one doesn't even make sense to me, but there you have it to go with KH 1.5 HD's also-nonsensical exclusivity.

You don't really believe that costs have hit a plateau do you? Oh you're serious? Let me laugh harder. People thought Waterworld was an expensive movie to produce... then Titanic happened, followed by dozens of movies that were increasingly more expensive (just ask Disney about John Carter).

At any rate, Bayonetta 2 specifically isn't in a genre where there ought to be so many exorbitant development costs - at least not in the vein of a Skyrim (open world) or Call of Duty (massive multiplayer server infrastructure cost). That doesn't mean there aren't costs - of course there are. But just because it's not a Flash game that you could put together in 3 months of spare time doesn't mean that it's in the upper tier in terms of games that are particularly expensive to produce. Platinum may not have had the desire to risk the amount of money it would have taken to produce a sequel, but that's not the same thing as saying they'd sign away the rights to a franchise that they know already has an install base on other platforms, with very passionate fans who have the war badges to prove it (achievements and trophies).

As for the silliness of the various PS3-exclusive HD collections, I sincerely doubt Sony's tossing a ton of money around for those. I don't know how well they're selling, but I doubt the volume is high enough to justify any sort of significant moneyhatting. It's much more likely that the HD remakes aren't showing up on 360 for the same reason that Silent Hill HD isn't getting a patch for the 360 version: there's not enough money on the table to make it worth it compared to the cost. It's much more likely that Sony has something up their sleeve that is making all these PS2 Classics and HD remakes easier to do, in terms of engine or emulation tech. After all, if you can emulate Shadow of the Colossus on the PS3, every other PS2 game should be easier, as SotC is one of the most technically demanding of all games from that era. If you factor in just how many HD collections Sony has produced internally (Ratchet, Sly, God of War, Jak & Daxter, Ico/SotC, and I might be missing others), it's completely plausible to assume that they know a lot more about the PS2 -> PS3 conversion process at this point than Microsoft knows about PS2 -> Xbox 360 (let alone a 3rd party developer).

Assassin's Creed is the easiest to explain: 1 Blu-ray disc will hold all of the games and all the native code for the PS3 versions already exists. Can't work that way on the 360 because of DVD limitations, and the Wii U would require extensive porting. So Sony gets away with an "exclusive" by virtue of being the easiest to cash in on without lifting more than half a finger.

When has any late port to another platform - and I'm talking by like eight months to a year here, not two or three - ever helped that game's chances on the newest platform?

You really have to stop asking these rhetorical questions that have stupendously easy answers. Minecraft says hi.

the choice between a version I have to subscribe to XBL to play and a version where I don't isn't a major deciding factor. Those ports are also going to be $50 at launch as opposed to $60 since they're ports. Money saved.

For you, since you're already buying a Wii U, it's "money saved" because you're considering the hardware to be a sunk cost. For someone who wasn't planning on buying one, $50 for a port + $50 for a non-sucky action game controller + $300 for a console is $400. For someone in that situation that's not money saved - quite the opposite.

Again, I will point out that you have this devastatingly bad habit of assuming that everyone else is in the same circumstances that you are in, and thinks the way you do.

As for XBL, anyone who pays for that service deserves whatever abuse gets piled on them, since it's the only paid entertainment subscription model I can think of where the amount of advertising doesn't decrease when you subscribe.


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: Sept. 13th Wii U news stuff

As for XBL, anyone who pays for that service deserves whatever abuse gets piled on them, since it's the only paid entertainment subscription model I can think of where the amount of advertising doesn't decrease when you subscribe.


Icemage

Eh, if it wasn't for having more friends on XBL and specific exclusives like Halo, I wouldn't bother. I like the chat functionality and some other things better, but PSN isn't that bad by comparison - and it's free. MS is just greedy and it shows.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Sept. 13th Wii U news stuff

I'm honestly done with this little circle-jerk, Icemage insists he's answered my questions even though he's weaseled by or dodged every one. The question I have posed has been: Name one game Nintendo has co-developed with another studio that made the the jump to another platform.

The only answer that even comes close is Rare and that's because the Stamper Bros. got a radically different deal from anyone that has signed on with Nintendo since then as a second party developer or third party collaborator. They have built entire studios such as Brownie Brown and Game Designers Studio for this exact purpose, both have which have done Nintendo originals and also played host to Capcom and SE collaborations (post-Super Mario RPG on the SE point). Also worth noting Nintendo hasn't really done timed exclusives since that whole "Capcom Five" thing.

No More Heroes, I think, was only ever spiritually exclusive to Wii because that's how Suda preferred it, but when Tak Fuji wanted to do a port, he had no problem with it happening so long as Grasshopper wasn't directly involved. I see no evidence of it really intended as exclusive or intended to be ported. Its just a notable game worth pointing out.

As for Icemage's Minecraft trump card - way to take the question out of context. I didn't think I had to phrase it as a big, third party port, but good job on missing the intent and going for an indie game. Bravo. There's so totally not a different measure for success with indie games than third party games, right?

I'm sitting here point out games Mass Effect 3 and Tekken Tag Tournament and you go asspull a Mojang title as your proof. Let me be plain - Mass Effect 3 has had its time in the sun, it coming out on Wii U is probably just fishing for what little sale potential it has left. Its not going to be a runaway success and we all know it - were Bayonetta 2 to plausibly come to PS4 and the Next Xbox, I'm pretty sure there would be very little interest there because those the true dyed-in-wool-fans would have already played it. A game like Tekken Tag Tournament 2 still has a chance to expand, but announcing a later version for Wii U has not cannibalized its sales elsewhere, but thats because its a fighter. Fighter fans will sometimes buy multiple copies of a game just to have a version to take elsewhere. Different audience and culture from Bayonetta or Mass Effect.

Darksiders II? Up in the air, but I think it will do OK because the age just isn't there. Arkham City might do OK, but it it won't do the numbers it did before.

[Icemage]

Re: Sept. 13th Wii U news stuff

I'll tell you what. You asked for a bet? He's my offer.

I'll go and buy a copy of Bayonetta 2 for Wii U when it releases and post pic proof. If at some point, Platinum or a publisher announces that it will stay exclusive forever (or 2 years pass after the Wii U version releases), I will break my disc with a hammer and post pic proof.

If on the other hand a version appears somewhere else (aside from PC), BBQ has to break his copy and show picture proof.

Fair?


Icemage