Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

[Taskmage]

US Official Killed in Libya Was a Senior EVE Online Player [UPDATE]

I link this not so much because it is poignant or topical, but because of the line that it draws between real life and game life, players and people. People die all the time, and we lose guildmates all the time, but rarely are the two connected. We know the two worlds are linked intellectually, but the almost bizarre congruence between who this guy was in life and who he was in game kind of drives home the reality. Here is a member of EVE's Council of Stellar Management—a fictional construct—that was killed by a real bullet.

[Raydeus]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

So he was podded in the real?

Interesting.

[Icemage]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

The juxtaposition of virtual and real worlds is "academically" interesting, but sort of falls to the wayside in the broader context of what's actually happening.

The entire protest and subsequent unrest and violence was triggered by an inflammatory hate-speech film released yesterday. A lot of the blood that was spilled can and should be laid at the feet of those idiots. They knew something like this could happen and they decided that what they were doing was still a good idea; they should suffer the consequences for it.

Personally, I'd support deporting the people who made the film and sending them to Libya to face the people they offended. Not that I support more bloodshed, but because I'm a big believer in people facing up to the consequences of their decisions.


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

CNN interviewed 1 of the guys earlier, and he claimed to have "forgotten" about what happened the last time someone did something like this.


They are partly to blame, but let's not put them on equal footing with these shitheads that actually did all this - I for one, am beyond sick of Islam being treated as the one religion you can't make fun of; all because there are just too many backwards hicks that are still living in the middle ages culturally & mentally. I'm not defending the film here, only free speech and encouraging a stronger emphasis on discipline. America doesn't go around the world blowing up Muslim homes and embassies etc every single time some stupid asshat burns an American flag or an effigy of the president etc. These people need to get with the times.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

The entire protest and subsequent unrest and violence was triggered by an inflammatory hate-speech film released yesterday.

You realize that Radical Islamists use that excuse for any violence they commit, right? A piece of media did something that was "against their relgion."

How many examples of media do we have to produce here? I mean. There's a stark difference between the polite disagreements of some Islamic chants in Zelda and LBP and threatening the lives of people at Comedy Central for putting your god in a cartoon. The world did not burn over EA's take on Dante's Inferno, either, but apparently a movie is enough to set them over the edge and kill Americans?

Riiiiiiiight.

I can't say much about the movie, but to cite it as THE catalyst seems pretty flimsy and plays right into hands of the people who actually committed violence. I mean, this happened on 9/11/2012, so tell me the timing doesn't lack some subtlety. I'd say the chance of this happening with or without the movie is practically equal.

What's really happening here is America is funding the violence that happens against it. In his own way, Obama's shitty foreign policy is creating new monsters like Regan did that two Bushes and a Clinton presidency spent dealing with. Why are we giving Egypt financial support when its the Islamic Brotherhood - sworn to hate us and Isreal. Arab spring, my ass. Its a new haven for hate and its making things worse over there.

[Taskmage]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

Tbh, the virtual worlds angle was the only part I found interesting. Freaking tons of people have died and are still dying at this moment in Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, central African nations whose names I'm too ignorant to give, etc, many I'm sure for worse reasons than this or none at all. With respect to the victims' families whose suffering is very present and personal, I don't see why I should care more about these deaths and their cultural context than all those others. As I see it, the circumstance of the inflammatory film is just a convenient excuse for our media to drum up more hatred for "the enemy" and I'm sure the Islamic media is doing the same in the inverse. If it weren't for that, this story wouldn't have gotten more than a sound bite of attention.

[Icemage]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

Of course it's a convenient excuse. That doesn't mean it was a good idea to make the film in the first place. I don't subscribe to the idea that just because the people involved in the violence are ALSO to blame, that there is some finite amount of blame to go around. This is not a zero sum game. The people who made and distributed the film are subhuman twits that I would shed no tears over if they permanently left the gene pool, and same goes for the people involved in Egypt and Libya.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

Even accepting that the killings were legitimately a direct result of the film, which I don't necessarily, I hardly think it's justice to say the creators should be deported to their deaths for exercising what is, in this country, a protected right. Twits they may be, and unwitting provocateurs, but that's not a crime nor is it, in the context of the much greater idiocy and hate-mongering in the world, even notable in my opinion.

[Malacite]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

You realize that Radical Islamists use that excuse for any violence they commit, right? A piece of media did something that was "against their relgion."

This x1000

It's why I get miffed when militant atheists start bashing religion - these assholes are just a bunch of crazy mother f'ers who will use any and everything to excuse their BS views and actions. That said, as I mentioned in my previous post, there are still far too many ignorant people out there that take everything too literally/seriously.

Of course it's a convenient excuse. That doesn't mean it was a good idea to make the film in the first place. I don't subscribe to the idea that just because the people involved in the violence are ALSO to blame, that there is some finite amount of blame to go around. This is not a zero sum game. The people who made and distributed the film are subhuman twits that I would shed no tears over if they permanently left the gene pool, and same goes for the people involved in Egypt and Libya.




Icemage

Yeah but again you're encroaching on the fine line of totalitarianism & censorship; I don't care for all the asshole skinheads and other racists out there spewing their extremely offensive bullshit every day, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just decide to retaliate with violence over it. Stupid or not (and I agree it was incredibly callous of them to make and release that film) what they did technically wasn't illegal (I don't think anyway) and people need to learn to just disregard shit like this and not freak the fuck out every time. So some ignorant Americans made fun of your religion - AFAIK, at least in their beliefs, that's going to land said yanks in Hell - just keep that in mind and protest in some other way. It's OK to get riled up over someone else's stupidity, even demand recourse - but instead it always turns out like this.

If I were to go to an NAACP meeting and shout out "Fuck all you n****rs" I'd totally expect to get my ass kicked for it (probably sued too for inflammatory hate speech). But killed? That's a bit of a stretch. That's what I'm trying to emphasize here, that's what needs to change, because there's always going to be ignorant morons who will pull stupid shit like this and certain parts of the world need to learn how to react properly to it.

[Armando]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

It's why I get miffed when militant atheists start bashing religion - these assholes are just a bunch of crazy mother f'ers who will use any and everything to excuse their BS views and actions.

I'm not condoning their behavior, but the reason a lot of atheists turn out this way is intolerance from the religous people they're close to. It's a vicious circle. Can you imagine what it's like to be a pastor in your community and come out as an atheist?

[Icemage]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

I think some of you are conflating the ideas of freedom of speech and hate-speech. I'm all for freedom of speech and freedom of religion, in the context of meaningful civil discourse. This situation (for obvious reasons) does not qualify.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

In the United States, even hate speech is a protected right. If it wasn't, we'd never have to talk about Westboro or the KKK. If you have a counterexample I'm interested to hear it.

[Malacite]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

I suppose a better example would be the Westboro asshats.

If it were up to me I'd strangle each and every one of them, but there are laws against that and well, that's precisely the kind of thing we're speaking out against in the first place. This is all just another perfect example of what Jefferson struggled with when he began making arguments for freedom of speech.

My point is simply that regardless of how insensitive and stupid the film may be, that does not in anyway condone the kind of response we've seen and this has got to change. And you're kinda making my point for me Armando - it goes both ways; doesn't matter what your beliefs are, ignorant asshole people will use whatever excuses they want to justify their own beliefs and behavior, be it militant atheists, religious zealots or what have you.

[Icemage]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

In the United States, even hate speech is a protected right. If it wasn't, we'd never have to talk about Westboro or the KKK. If you have a counterexample I'm interested to hear it.

Indeed it is. I'm not suggesting that people should not have the right to say what they like. I am saying they should face the consequences of their actions, and support any form of instant karma for these people who abuse the right of free speech.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Re: Stellar Management Councillor killed in Libya

Wouldn't that be due to a disconnection between free speech and taking responsibility for one's words?

Just because everyone has the right to say what's in their mind freely does that exempt them from facing the consequences of their words? I mean, I know the main reason for that (in theory) is to avoid repression, but it happens anyway. So there's clearly a rift in there.

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Political ads are a prime example of it.