PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

I think its important to reiterate that this is - in effect - a region lock. Region free on Vita was a slight hassle before and expensive, now Sony themselves have made some games more difficult to get. Vita no longer has any real advantage over 3DS and have made themselves less convenient than Apple and Nintendo.

There are still games I purchased from PSN that would not be available to me now on Vita, even though its supposed to support that content. They're entering a critical time for Vita now and still haven't met the initial promises they made for the platform.

I'll still keep my P4G pre-order, but I am not pleased with the idiotic pride Sony is showing here.

[Firewind]

Re: PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

Yeah the one thing keeping me from buying a Vita right now (well other than the stuff in the thread) is similar to the reason why I'm having buyer's remorse for my 3DS.

I'll sum it up:

• The only games I play on my 3DS are DS games.
• The only games I will play on my Vita are PSone games (and P4G if it ever comes out here).
• 3DS games and Vita games cost the price of a console game in the UK (which is basically the equivalent of $70).
• Steam games are half the price of that. GOG is half the price of that. My laptop can easily be used to stream Brony and Netflix stuff on a much larger screen and at better resolutions that the 3DS and PSVita.
• iOS and Android games are half the price of even those. Plus my iPhone is a veritable swiss army knife of gadgets and apps and is far better for streaming stuff than the 3DS or Vita for times where my laptop would be impracticable.

Neither handheld really has any compelling reasons for me to bother with them. Both just seem to be running on little more than relying on the brand names and consumer loyalty right now. I mean if you already own a smart phone than what does the 3DS or Vita offer to you that the smart phone does not already do better other then have a different games library?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

I would say deeper more worthwhile games can be found on 3DS and Vita even now compared to iOS. You're not listing off games here. Aside from games I could already play on older platforms, there's very little of substance to be found on mobiles. PvZ and S&S are the best of it I've seen in terms of substance and creativity.

iOS and Andriod largely deal at a Game Boy level - I can find more substantial stuff in spinach green and black from 1989.

Mobile is clearly better for a EU gamers situation, but you can't deny it lacks a great deal of substance.

iOS is not bringing me SMT IV, it's version of Bit.Trip is awful and often I can't be sure if my money is going to the creators because Apple and Google won't implement licensing to stop the rampant IP theft. That is a HUGE reason why I think it's a inferior platform. What little good is done is stolen - Angry Birds, anyone?

[Armando]

Re: PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

Kotaku posted an interview with Iwata that tackled the issue of smartphone VS dedicated handheld. It's a worthwhile read.

Something that Reggie said at E3 was that the Nintendo 3DS hardware was selling more or faster than the DS, and I think that's something.. that a lot of people are aware of. But something that Reggie also said is that the 3DS software sales were exceeding DS software sales.
...
I think this is proof that even though we see an increase in smartphones and tablets and whatnot and there's obviously a huge flood of games in the market, I think the software sales that Reggie alluded to and pointed out really prove that these people, even with this flood of free games and whatnot for these portable devices—[these] non-game-centric devices—are not keeping people from purchasing software for dedicated hardware.
...
I'm not saying there aren't people out there who aren't going to purchase a dedicated handheld device based on the availability and the fun factor in their smartphones. The examples you gave are factual. I'm not saying that that's not true. I do want to say that there are still people buying our devices and that is also factual.
...
I think within games you have two needs that people fill. One is the time-filler need. The other is that it's a very important time for me and I want to have a rich experience. Those are two separate needs, I think.

There's only so much you can do with a touch screen. Ouya may turn Android into a console, but it doesn't change the fact that a phone isn't a controller.

[Firewind]

Re: PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

Pretty good argument there. And yes the mobile market has always been pretty well supported over here. I still personally find that the 3DS and Vita do have lots of wasted potential (it's just more glaring with the Vita due to Sony being Sony). The situation we have with the 3DS over here is the same as what you are having with the mobile market, there's nothing but shovelware and games of dubious quality, with the occasional good game.

Take a look at the 3DS page on Amazon:

Amazon.co.uk: Nintendo 3DS: PC & Video Games

That said there are a bunch of 3DS games I would buy:

Pokemon Conquest
Harvest Moon 3D
Kingdom Hearts 3D
Pokemon Black 2
Inazuma Eleven 2

Yeah I'll probably dust off the 3DS when I get around to getting those games since the prices are good and they're good games. I'd add in Tales of the Abyss but it's just stupidly expensive. Tales of Graces f cost the same amount.

As for the PS Vita, other than Uncharted, the MGS Collection and LittleBigPlanet, I'm not sure what else is even out there for it other than the PSone games for it like Tomba that I would feel compelled to buy.

[Icemage]

Re: PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

I think the bigger question is "What do these dedicated handhelds offer that other portable devices do not?"

In Nintendo's case, the 3DS has two answers to this:

(a) Buttons and stick(s)* and (b) Nintendo-exclusive first party content

I put an asterisk on "buttons and stick(s)" here because the 3DS has a perfectly serviceable set of controls, but does lack the standard 2nd analog stick which runs very much against its own original claim of pushing 3D. While there are certainly workarounds to not having a second analog stick for camera control, you're pigeonholed into a handful of limited or sub-optimal control schemes. Not a deal-breaker for most games, but in the context of the conversation, important nonetheless. Either you have a pre-defined camera angle (Devil May Cry, Diablo, on-rails shooters), a non-controllable camera (Genji: Days of the Blade, Too Human), giving up a button to "center" the camera (Xenoblade Chronicles). The touch-screen doesn't help for 3D camera control because you can't comfortably operate the circle-pad(s) while touching the screen.

At the end of the day, the controls for the 3DS are still serviceable and not a huge detriment, even if they are a bit disappointing for a device that touted "3D" so heavily when it launched.

On the other hand, Nintendo's first-party and mostly exclusive second party software is almost always high quality and stellar, and you can't get it anywhere else (Mario, Zelda, Kirby, and also Pokemon).

That's at least a "reasonable" value proposition for the end user (the original $250 price tag, however, was a big minus, but the current sub-$200 price tag fixed that problem mostly). It's not a convincing argument for everyone, but you could at least make the case and be heard.

For the Vita, Sony's problem is that the handheld has a horrible identity crisis. No one "needs" it for anything.

Twin-sticks and back-touch are "interesting" and open up possibilities with gaming that just wouldn't work on any other handheld device (Uncharted: Golden Abyss, Super Stardust Delta). The only games I've seen on the Vita that look like they couldn't really be done sensibly on another platform are Gravity Rush and the upcoming game from Media Molecule, Tearaway.

Aside from that, a lot of content that's coming to the Vita is also accessible on the PS3 (Sound Shapes, Sly 4, PlayStation All-Stars, MGS HD, etc. plus ALL PSOne Classics), so what you're left with is a handful of really interesting released and upcoming exclusive games which the general public doesn't care about (Soul Sacrifice, Gravity Rush, Tearaway) and a number of spin-off or alternate titles that people can get a junkie fix on elsewhere (PSOne Classics, Assassin's Creed: Liberation, Silent Hill: Book of Memories).

That plus that sticky $250 price point PLUS the cost of a memory card is what's causing the Vita to struggle. Sony needs to get their act together and figure out that killer apps are worth their weight in gold for launching hardware, and they need to do it soon or they'll continue having problems convincing people to buy the hardware (and in turn convince 3rd party publishers to invest in development).


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

Sony seems a touch obsessed with - and this was the case with PSP as well - the idea of a handheld being like a console. While you claim a second stick is a "standard" for 3D especially, I see it as something that forces the idea that handhelds should be more like consoles. Why PSP and Vita have trailed behind so dramatically is because they've been so reliant on reproducing a console experience.

Its natural for some prior-gen experiences to bleed into the handheld market, its even a decent starting point to get the software rolling, but being like a console can't be the core identity of the product. And yet, Sony seems to prioritize that illogical core concept on PSP and now Vita.

One of their golly-gee-whiz moments at PAX this weekend was Ico HD being brought to Remote Play. Whoop de fucking doo. The whole problem with RP is mostly nothing works and it doesn't give Vita that much more functionality because much of the PS3 software - to say nothing of random availability of Wifi hotspots and the huge handwidth consumption of 3 or 4G - make that feature pretty impractical.

Then you have Cross Buy. Again, this is a neat gimmick, but one that gives us PS3 games as filler now rather than substantial Vita content now and later down the road. I promise you the second PS4 is on the market Cross Buy support will be abandoned.

Meanwhile it seems on the one thing that could bring the biggest turnaround SCEA has to dick around on - PSOne Classic support.

Japan has access to 200 PSOne Classics right now for Vita and soon they will have most of the other 400+ still not available.
EU got 50, US got 9.

The apathy and arrogance of SCEA is both astounding and damaging to Vita. If I jsut had the promise of being able to play my 12 PSOne Classics in addition to MGS, Persona and my other PSP games all on my Vita I would absolutely have one right now. The software would still be lacking but having all that content in one convenient place would make it passable.

But since SCEA likes to do things the hard way, I may actually get a better value on the Wii U if the really strong rumors going around are correct.

[Icemage]

Re: PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

I'm not against the idea of alternate control schemes for 3D games. I AM saying that there hasn't been any control scheme to come along that makes more sense if you want to be able to explore a 3D universe at will without significant trade-offs.

The Wiimote doesn't handle 3D movement and camera control well (see: absoterrible camera in Xenoblade Chronicles until you plug in a Classic Controller). Both Zeldas suffer from this as well (though auto-lock-on helps somewhat at least for combat, but that's a crutch). Metroid Prime 3 and The Conduit almost get it right, but the dodgy accuracy and lack of controlled turning sensitivity is kludgy. PlayStation Move fails for the exact same reason.

Touch controls don't work for 3D either; there's no way to intuitively make tapping or swiping make sense with respect to a camera that doesn't feel disconnected and terrible. Tilt controls only work in very specific circumstances. In a slow-paced game like Flower, you at least have plenty of leeway. Dewey's Adventure and Lair are the other end of the tilt spectrum, and both have pretty flaky controls.

Having a second stick doesn't make game controls automatically awesome (lolTooHuman), and even 3D games can be good despite somewhat flaky controls (Super Mario 3D Land), but there's a significant slice of gaming that suffers without that second stick, especially on a handheld device that can't do a Wiimote setup workaround. Shooters of all types just plain suffer without a second stick or other high-intuition camera control scheme (mouse). Twin-stick shooters like Geometry Wars obviously can't exist well without the second stick.

Incidentally, to back up my point about software being necessary for hardware sales...

PS Vita tops hardware in Japan thanks to Hatsune Miku -Destructoid

Sony REALLY needs to learn that lesson about killer apps. Remote Play for PS3 titles isn't it, or even within shouting distance. Even as someone who owns a PS3, a Vita, God of War Collection, AND ICO/SotC Collection, my reaction to Remote Play for the Vita on those titles is less than a shrug.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

I think part of the problem is Sony spends more time hoping someone else makes the killer app for them with Vita.

Back with the PSP GTA:LCS was supposed to be that game, but it wasn't. Nor was GTA:VCS. Took three years and then Monster Hunter came along. Now Nintendo has that to go with Pokemon, which is a pairing I would not underestimate, especially if another Dragon Quest game hits Nintendo platforms (a 3DS Pokemon is a given).

I know some people are saying all Vita needs is Monster Hunter, but I think the loss of that as an exclusive changes the game dramatically.

Sony has it in them to come up with a killer app. I don't know if Tearaway or Soul Sacrifice are that, though. Ragnarok Odyssey, Persona 4 and Project Diva are three strong hints of the kinds of games that will sell Vitas. With each of those releases, sales went up dramatically. Not that that would change Vita's fortunes in the West, but its something.

[Icemage]

Re: PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

I get the impression Sony was betting on shooters being the killer app for the Vita in the West. To be fair, the potential is there, but the execution thus far has been pretty underwhelming, and frankly half the reason shooters do so well is the online community. That's just not going to coalesce on a handheld because of the time investment. Monster Hunter's key is that you can sort of get in and get out in a relatively short amount of time, so being near someone else who can help is not a hindrance if they have only limited amounts of time to play with you.

What the Vita needs is something that's genuinely fun, approachable, can be played in small doses, and gets better with multiplayer (synchronous or asynchronous). Much as I dislike Zynga, tearing a page from their playbook and making a Farmville-ish social game for the Vita would make a ton of sense.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: PSA for Vita owners about 1.80 firmware update

That's what's worked for the last 23 years.