Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

[Raydeus]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

New hardware means new possibilities. Still, the lessons learned under heavier restrictions form the basis for the new possibilities. People didn't stop making tile-based games or reusing sprites just because the SNES had more power. The lessons learned when developing for the NES were just as applicable to the SNES.

They encourage better use of system resources but also force you to think about different possibilities when a certain idea just can't be done yet. The limitations shape the games:
* Miyamoto wanted to have Yoshi as early as Mario 3, but the NES just couldn't handle that. Instead, we got different suits for Mario, which has become a staple of most Mario games since.
* In A Link to the Past, the developers wanted to have lots of items to find and collect, but they had limited space on the cart for that many unique items. Miyamoto came up with the idea of splitting Heart Containers into Pieces of Heart, so you could have four times as many health power-ups to find without actually introducing more items.
* Super Mario 64 takes place in Peach's Castle because the N64 couldn't support a massive, continuous world (they were almost going to do the same thing for Zelda 64 but found a lot of workarounds that let them pull off the overworld.)
* Doom's engine isn't a super-efficient 3D engine. It actually makes a fake 3D world out of 2D data. The techniques behind that probably wouldn't have been developed at all if powerful graphics cards had been available.
* Pokemon's battle system would probably be very different if it had been developed on a console with higher specs than the Game Boy.

That's good and all, but now list all the things and ideas developers couldn't realize because of system limitations.

Like I said, you can get creative about it, and that creativity may help you develop something else down the road of course. But if you are doing so at the expense of the ideas you already had and that you had to discard because the system just couldn't handle it it becomes a Pyrrihc victory at best.

---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------

You don't think optimizing takes creativity or innovation? lol

I'm talking about creativity or innovation regarding better content creation. Which is why I added the line about being creative about getting around limitations.

---------- Post added at 03:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:42 PM ----------

Remember Donkey Kong Country? It was pushing the envelope for graphics on the SNES back when other developers insisted that they had done everything that could be done. Then they did it later on Game Boy Color and Capcom even had a version of Resident Evil they were planning for GBC, which was pretty crazy.

No one is saying they didn't come up with nice techniques to sort of get the content they wanted out of a much less powerful system. But now consider how the game would've been if the console had been able to realize the original idea in it's full potential without having to cut back due to system limitations.

What would be more valuable to you?

A) A technique to get better graphics out of a Gameboy.
B) The full content the creator of the game had in mind at the time?

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------

PS > My point in all this is that while better use of resources to get around system limitations is a good thing it does come at a cost.

And the content and original ideas end up paying that cost.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

I want creators who can think outside the box instead of always wanting a bigger one to work within.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

No one is saying they didn't come up with nice techniques to sort of get the content they wanted out of a much less powerful system. But now consider how the game would've been if the console had been able to realize the original idea in it's full potential without having to cut back due to system limitations.

I think you've got it backwards. When you have to deal with limitations it forces you to make your game more focused and you have to be more discriminating since you can't just throw everything in and call it a day.

Yeah it's easier to be able to simply snap your fingers and implement everything without any problems, but the team who has to figure out what to cut will be more likely to have the more polished game because they had to trim all the fat.

[Armando]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

Like I said, you can get creative about it, and that creativity may help you develop something else down the road of course. But if you are doing so at the expense of the ideas you already had and that you had to discard because the system just couldn't handle it it becomes a Pyrrihc victory at best.

It's not a Pyrrhic victory. You still have the old idea written down somewhere for when the hardware allows to do it, and you have the new ideas too. As opposed to having just the old idea.

[Raydeus]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

And I guess this is the difference between HD and SD players. XD

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

When Spiderman came out on Playstation, it pulled a stunt that most developers wished they could get away with. They made a reason for their invisible wall on the New York streets below - it had been filled with knockout gas. If Spidey fell, he'd succumb to the same fate as the rest of New York. This allowed Treyarch to make an exhilarating webslinging action adventure around the rooftops of New York.

... and then you have the latest Spiderman. It takes place only inside one building. Sorry, but a Spiderman without webslinging around a city is like Batman without detective work.

HD budgets and assets, man.

[Armando]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

When Spiderman came out on Playstation, it pulled a stunt that most developers wished they could get away with. They made a reason for their invisible wall on the New York streets below - it had been filled with knockout gas. If Spidey fell, he'd succumb to the same fate as the rest of New York. This allowed Treyarch to make an exhilarating webslinging action adventure around the rooftops of New York.

Never heard of that one. Well played.

[Icemage]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

When Spiderman came out on Playstation, it pulled a stunt that most developers wished they could get away with. They made a reason for their invisible wall on the New York streets below - it had been filled with knockout gas. If Spidey fell, he'd succumb to the same fate as the rest of New York. This allowed Treyarch to make an exhilarating webslinging action adventure around the rooftops of New York.

... and then you have the latest Spiderman. It takes place only inside one building. Sorry, but a Spiderman without webslinging around a city is like Batman without detective work.

HD budgets and assets, man.

Correlation is not causation.

HD budgets and assets do not cause games to suddenly become garbage.

re: Armando

No, technical limitations do not always (or even usually) cause a marked increase in quality or creativity. If that were the case, the Wii would have the highest number of quality games in this generation, and we all know that is not true. Yes, "sometimes" a limitation causes you to think differently about a problem and find a better solution; but more often it just causes an unbreakable road block that forces a compromise that degrades the overall quality of the final product.

Having more powerful hardware just means that the good developers can spend a little less time and energy worrying about stupid side issues like visual perfection. It's not a free pass to just go crazy with computational requirements (see: Crysis and how it couldn't be run acceptably by most commercially available hardware for years after its release). But there are some things that you simply can't design around that actually do require tons of computational power.

For instance: I dare you to find a game that is like Super Stardust HD on the Wii or any other non-HD platform. You can't, because older platforms don't have enough power under the hood to calculate potential collisions on thousands of independent objects, let alone display them in such a way that isn't detrimental to gameplay.

(Stardust HD gameplay)

Icemage

[Armando]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

If that were the case, the Wii would have the highest number of quality games in this generation, and we all know that is not true

To be fair:
* I don't think any previous generation has been so markedly obsessed with graphics
* Previous generations didn't have resolution differences across competing consoles. Either everyone was 240p, or 480i. A few games managed to be 480p but who had an Enhanced Definition TV back then?
* Previous generations didn't have to deal with HDTVs streching and blurring the shit out of 480i and 480p.
* Most of the good 3rd party devs bailed on the Wii. It's unfairly represented. You can't expect it to compete in volume of good games when the devs want to go HD-only.

But there are some things that you simply can't design around that actually do require tons of computational power.

I agree with you. I acknowledged that when I answered Raydeus' question of why we left the NES behind.

EDIT: To be clear, I didn't mean to imply that a dev working under constraints will put out a better game than if he didn't have constraints. I was merely pointing out that hardware limitations are a major driving force of smart game design and new ideas. Not everyone will innovate as a result of limitations but someone inevitably will. I simply don't agree with Raydeus' assessment that limitations have no impact on creativity.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

Developers have a fixation on shiny new hardware like scientists are whores for government grants. They claim to want to work without restrictions, but seldom do much other than what everyone else is doing with it.

Skyrim could have been a next-gen game. They could have waited, but I'm betting if they had it would look as terrible as Oblivion did for its time. Instead, they wanted to stick it out and make Skyrim, which much better visually and more stable than Oblivion ever was. Not without some issues, but the next gen installment will only benefit for them sticking it out with this gen and making improvements.

[Aeni]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

There are many factors in the cost of development for a game. Leaving aside the most obvious and yet unglamorous costs related to recruitment, employee benefits and salaries/overtime, you still have to contend with a good chunk of costs that are strictly related to the development process.

-Development tools (Both software and hardware)
-Network infrastructure
-IP licenses, patents and copyrights (includes rights and ownership of the product)
-Legal issues
-Direction and management
-Marketing & Representation
-Support (Both for in-house and for product)

... and we haven't even touched the surface of actually making one pixel or polygon of anything yet. Developing a game is much of a business as it is an art and most people tend to forget about that. Compromises made with quality, content and even the value of a game are hinged upon a myriad of factors, both internal and external, and we shouldn't be rushing to judgment.

Labor problems can also affect development. Most of these issues are confidential (for good reason, either due to local/federal labor laws or language in a contract or agreement) So whose to say that 5 key members of the development team didn't just up and leave, either due to unsatisfactory working environment, a disagreement with the direction of the project or just for better pay? That abrupt change can make all the difference as to the success of the end product.

Now, I realize that the article speaks to only the technical issues of the actual development of games, but I just see so many comments here from people who think they understand everything that entails into developing a game. Again, we are not privy to the 24/7 experience over a 3 or 4 year lifespan of any development project, from concept to creation, and right now, I feel Icemage would be the only person here with enough real life experience to take a swing at this issue (or pass judgment)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

So the rest of us who have played games for multiple generations and can see the difference; do work in production and media and are well aware that a game developer is a job like any other complete with the same bullshit we put up with - we totally don't know what were talking about.

It may be different, but it's not beyond anyone's understanding. All I have to do is look at Dragon Age 2 to know you can't make a good RPG in 16 months. It's like an Editor in chief asking me to pump out an editorial in five minutes. Time, research, gathering data, refining a process, contacts, interviews, spell and grammar check. There are days I could get it done in 15 mins, but it's going to be a bullshit humor piece, not hard journalism.

It would be nice if people didn't treat other job like some high class shit I can't understand. Been playing games for 30 years, I've picked up on things like the changes in scope and design. Plenty of us know what made the games we loved work.

One key thing here is we're talking about a Nintendo first party. That alone is a different work environment from what a third party developer enjoys. First party gets the time and money it needs, that's very rare ford third parties. It affects design, scope and the ability to overcome limits encountered.

[Firewind]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

Actually the knife in CV was unbelievably OP in skilled hands as you could rather easily kneecap zombies and then either run or just continue to slash them while they're down rofl. I'd often drop 2~3 zombies in a single slash.

And those are all design limitations, not technical/hardware. I still think running & gunning is just fine, if not necessary for a good survival horror - it was badly needed in RE5 with how often you got completely surrounded. It's the enemies dropping items and ammo in an arcade fashion that ruins it (that and the newer RE's save for Revelations lack good atmosphere). The only thing tank controls ever did was frustrate people, myself included. Having to decide if a monster is worth the bullets or not though is fair game and something I miss dearly.

It's also why I absolutely *hated* SH: Shattered Memories. The game wasn't scary at all, because it was completely devoid of danger during the "real world" segments and then during the Other World all you did was run for your life. It was tense, but not really scary. The only games I've seen that even remotely make that particularly limitation (no fighting back) work have been Pneumbra/Amnesia.

Actually the knife on RE4 is the most overpowered one in RE games. You can kill nearly every single enemy in the game with it, the final boss included and the only enemies you can't kill with it are the ones that you physically can't reach and so have to shoot them or the environment, or the game expects you to run from due to their insane damage resistance and/or health.

[Malacite]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

Eh I don't remember the knife actually being able to stun/disable enemies in RE4 though like it could in CV.

[Icemage]

Re: Why Xenoblade would have only been possible on the Wii

It may be different, but it's not beyond anyone's understanding. All I have to do is look at Dragon Age 2 to know you can't make a good RPG in 16 months. It's like an Editor in chief asking me to pump out an editorial in five minutes. Time, research, gathering data, refining a process, contacts, interviews, spell and grammar check. There are days I could get it done in 15 mins, but it's going to be a bullshit humor piece, not hard journalism.

I'm surprised to hear you say that.

Someone better send that memo to the guys who made The Legend of Grimrock and let them know that they're not allowed to make a good RPG in 16 months.

Almost Human » Legend of Grimrock

Almost Human Ltd. is a Finnish indie game studio founded in the beginning of the year 2011

Legend of Grimrock for PC Reviews, Ratings, Credits, and More at Metacritic

The game launched in the middle of April of 2012. By my math, Jan 2011 to April 2012 is... 15 months or so. And Metacritic seems to agree it's a pretty good game, with a composite score of 81. I'd be the last one to defend Dragon Age 2, but many of its problems have less to do with development time and more to do with too much hubris on the part of Bioware and too much interference from EA.

It would be nice if people didn't treat other job like some high class shit I can't understand. Been playing games for 30 years, I've picked up on things like the changes in scope and design. Plenty of us know what made the games we loved work.

Playing games - even for a long time - only scratches the surface of gameplay design, and gives you virtually no insight into the technical challenges of actual development. Even my limited exposure to game development and my contact with people in the industry only gives me a glimpse of some of the factors. I can speak knowledgeably about general game/level design, resource management, art asset creation, and I have a functional acquaintance with how most gaming hardware architectures work (aside from iOS/Android devices, which I've never really looked at in anything beyond the most cursory looks). But don't ask me what the average budget of a game is, because I've no idea.

Good, long-time players like yourself can often make insightful, educated comments about gameplay and technical performance, but those are not the same thing as knowing how games are actually developed - and in the case of this topic specifically, I'm afraid your position is not defensible.

One key thing here is we're talking about a Nintendo first party. That alone is a different work environment from what a third party developer enjoys. First party gets the time and money it needs, that's very rare ford third parties. It affects design, scope and the ability to overcome limits encountered.

That is true, but also undermines your original stance about how Xenoblade couldn't be made on another platform. Sony is known for giving some of their development studios as much time as necessary (see: Team Ico, Polyphony Digital, Media Molecule, etc.), and there are a handful of 3rd party developers who enjoy similar concessions from their publishing partners (Valve, Rockstar and CD Project come to mind immediately, and I'd add Blizzard to the list if Diablo 3 didn't look like such a rush job - historically Blizzard titles have been released "when they're ready" and not "when Activision says so").

Other than the Wii's basic control scheme, none of its practical technical specifications exceed that of either the Xbox 360, PS3, or PC. In the case of the PS3 specifically, the Move + Nav controller effectively eliminates even the unique control scheme advantage (not that Xenoblade takes any advantage of the the Wii's controls - in fact, the game is almost completely unplayable with a Wiimote). Ergo, Xenoblade "could" be made on any other platform (Xbox 360, PS3, PC). The only thing that prevents it from being so is the simple fact that Monolith is owned by Nintendo. The rest of the original article is, quite frankly, blatant apologism - largely incorrect apologism, at that.

Xenoblade is a great game. It has some very smart design choices to let it do what it does, but visually it IS a mess, rescued only by good art direction and the aforementioned long draw distance. I still think Monolith played their cards almost perfectly with the hand they were dealt, but that's not the same thing as saying similar tech can't exist on other platforms.


Icemage