Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

As for the 3DS lineup, I've played some of SSFIV3D on the 3DS, and frankly it doesn't really gain anything gameplay wise from being in 3D, and loses quite a lot from being on a handheld.

Maybe its just I'm a bit flexible when it comes to controls, but I've yet to find a fighter that lost any dimension of gameplayf for being on a handheld, game pad or arcade stick. Its all the same to me, its just a matter or knowing and accepting different button layouts. Seriously, I could do Ivy's Summon Suffering on any controller you handed me. At least from SC and SCII - SCIII wasn't even a good game and SCIV was a mild recovery at best, but still kinda sucked.

Combos I have trouble with I'd have trouble with on any platform as well, but then lengthy combos are more for show in SSFIV and not of any real value other the powering up your opponents revenge meter.

Let's be completely honest, though, not even consoles can touch playing the game in the arcade or with a friend right beside you. Its just not the same talking shit to someone over the internet, so I kinda have to laugh at people that lord over a handheld version with so-called superior console version. These games are still best played locally and nothing will ever change that.

Ocarina of Time 3D is the same game we played years ago with spruced up graphics. About on par with the Metroid Prime trilogy on Wii, it's sort of cool, but why do we need it if we've already played the original?

I think its because lots of people actually like going back and playing older games.. Handhelds are a place to make that money again, though in a Nintendo handheld's case, ports are kind of a starting poitn while for PSP they became the bread and butter of the platform.

I've played on my 3DTV where I felt the gameplay experience was truly augmented by 3D was Killzone 3.

That's the only PS3 title I've heard people say didn't benefit from 3D at all. Well the few people that actually play it. I kinda wonder what happened with Killzone 3. It was all hype, hype, hype, great review and then the week it came out it all fell silent. Kinda like Homefront, though maybe not that bad.

[Icemage]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

Let's be completely honest, though, not even consoles can touch playing the game in the arcade or with a friend right beside you. Its just not the same talking shit to someone over the internet, so I kinda have to laugh at people that lord over a handheld version with so-called superior console version. These games are still best played locally and nothing will ever change that.

Last time I checked you can't connect a fighting stick to a handheld, so that's one significant difference. And sure, nothing quite beats having an arcade cabinet and in-person trash talking, but saying that a handheld version of a fighting game - particularly SSFIV - isn't any worse than the home console version compared to the arcade cabinet is complete nonsense.

That's not to say that fighting games can't work on handhelds (see: Dissidia), but "in general" I find that doing really precise moves and combos on handheld control schemes is noticeably more difficult than on most standard home console controllers, aside from maybe the original Xbox 1 monstrosity.

At any rate, the real rub is that SSFIV3D doesn't really surpass (or equal, really) the home console version. As such, it's not a selling point for me.

I think its because lots of people actually like going back and playing older games.. Handhelds are a place to make that money again, though in a Nintendo handheld's case, ports are kind of a starting poitn while for PSP they became the bread and butter of the platform.

I think both the DS and the PSP have their fair share of ports; if anything, PS1 ports to the PSP are a more recent phenomenon, at least in North America (let's leave Japan out of the discussion here, since neither your statement nor mine is true in the market for Japan, as both handhelds have a quite robust library of unique titles to their credit in Japan).

I like going back and playing old games as much as anyone, but I don't like paying new-game-prices for those same old games, and that more than anything else is my objection to LoZ:OoT3D.

That's the only PS3 title I've heard people say didn't benefit from 3D at all. Well the few people that actually play it. I kinda wonder what happened with Killzone 3. It was all hype, hype, hype, great review and then the week it came out it all fell silent. Kinda like Homefront, though maybe not that bad.

FPS games aren't really my favorite genre any more, and haven't been for years, but Killzone 3 really does become a bit easier to play in 3D mode (albeit more tiring on your eyes). The only other 3D-enabled game among the dozen or so that I have on my PS3 that I thought got anything tasteful out of it was Super Stardust HD.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

Last time I checked you can't connect a fighting stick to a handheld, so that's one significant difference. And sure, nothing quite beats having an arcade cabinet and in-person trash talking, but saying that a handheld version of a fighting game - particularly SSFIV - isn't any worse than the home console version compared to the arcade cabinet is complete nonsense.

Try playing it. For more than five seconds at a kiosk. I can do everything I can do with Guile and Chun Li I can do on PS3 or 360, except Zangief is also waaaaaay more accessible thanks to the Circle pad, so Circle motion characters actually got a boost in this version.

And I play in Pro Mode, which cancels shortcutted special moves, but the Lite mode is unfortunately the default on the kiosk unit.

But yes, I get it, if its not on you PS3 it will never measure up in any way.

That's not to say that fighting games can't work on handhelds (see: Dissidia), but "in general" I find that doing really precise moves and combos on handheld control schemes is noticeably more difficult than on most standard home console controllers, aside from maybe the original Xbox 1 monstrosity.

Dissidia is a brawler, not a fighter. There is a difference. The only thing its really accomplished for either genre is a worthwhile story mode and a depth of content that rivals Super Smash Bros. Its failed to embrace network play twice now unless its attached to the AHP crutch.

I like going back and playing old games as much as anyone, but I don't like paying new-game-prices for those same old games, and that more than anything else is my objection to LoZ:OoT3D.

That's why its a remake - they added and updated things. If it had just been a port, I'd just stick with my VC version. The old version hasn't aged that well, nothing from the PSX/N64/Saturn era has.

Remaking things that came out on PS2 - Ico and SotC aside -kinda boggles my mind, though. In the same way remaking Metal Gear Solid and Resident Evil for Gamecube did, though to RE's credit it was pretty much a whole new game with the same scenario while MGS:TS actually lost some of the original's edge with it additions.

OOT is 13 years old. It really tried to show the virtues of 3D for its time, I can see the merit in remaking it in actual 3D. Plus its not like its just an enhanced port, there are other new additions.

[Icemage]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

Try playing it. For more than five seconds at a kiosk. I can do everything I can do with Guile and Chun Li I can do on PS3 or 360, except Zangief is also waaaaaay more accessible thanks to the Circle pad, so Circle motion characters actually got a boost in this version.

And I play in Pro Mode, which cancels shortcutted special moves, but the Lite mode is unfortunately the default on the kiosk unit.

But yes, I get it, if its not on you PS3 it will never measure up in any way.

Will you ever stop putting words in my mouth? I don't appreciate it, and it's getting really, really old. If you must know, I didn't play SSFIV3D on a kiosk - it was on a friend's 3DS, and yes, I was able do all of the moves - just not as well, nor as consistently as I can on a fight stick or even a standard controller. The circle pad isn't tangibly better than a standard analog stick, so I don't see your point about that either.

You seem to think I hate handhelds or something; for the past several months, my PSP has seen more game time than anything else, due to Valkyria Chronicles II / God of War: Ghost of Sparta / Dissidia [012] Duodecim / Patapon 3.

Dissidia is a brawler, not a fighter. There is a difference. The only thing its really accomplished for either genre is a worthwhile story mode and a depth of content that rivals Super Smash Bros. Its failed to embrace network play twice now unless its attached to the AHP crutch.

I was pointing at Dissidia as being a good example of combat controls that work right without feeling awkward on a handheld.

That's why its a remake - they added and updated things. If it had just been a port, I'd just stick with my VC version. The old version hasn't aged that well, nothing from the PSX/N64/Saturn era has.

Remaking things that came out on PS2 - Ico and SotC aside -kinda boggles my mind, though. In the same way remaking Metal Gear Solid and Resident Evil for Gamecube did, though to RE's credit it was pretty much a whole new game with the same scenario while MGS:TS actually lost some of the original's edge with it additions.

OOT is 13 years old. It really tried to show the virtues of 3D for its time, I can see the merit in remaking it in actual 3D. Plus its not like its just an enhanced port, there are other new additions.

Take the fanboy glasses off for a moment and realize that you're paying full price ($40) for an old game with a makeover.

Compare and contrast to your own example of Ico / Shadow of the Colossus, which are several years old, are excellent games in their own right, are also getting an HD makeover, and more importantly are being sold at a total combined price for two games that is lower than typical games on the platform. Or put it more succintly, you can get both games for the same price you can buy OoT3D.

Or take another example like The Sly Collection, which has three games for the same price as LoZ:OoT3D.

If OoT3D was, say $25 or even $30, I wouldn't quibble. $40 is just insulting.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

Will you ever stop putting words in my mouth? I don't appreciate it, and it's getting really, really old. If you must know, I didn't play SSFIV3D on a kiosk - it was on a friend's 3DS, and yes, I was able do all of the moves - just not as well, nor as consistently as I can on a fight stick or even a standard controller. The circle pad isn't tangibly better than a standard analog stick, so I don't see your point about that either.

You're the one that came into this thread and downplayed the platform in the first place. And I find it annoying you always come in to downplay anything that isn't on the PS3, pretty much.

Again, I can play Street Fighter just as well on this as any other platform you throw at me and I'm not talking out of my ass when I say that. It turns out that way with any multiplatform fighter for me.

360 pad, dual shock 3, arcade stick, 3ds - doesn't matter. I will do fine so long as I have familiarity with the game. Just because you can't manage doesn't mean other people cannot, so stop blaming the platform for things you can't accomplish that other people clearly can.

You seem to think I hate handhelds or something; for the past several months, my PSP has seen more game time than anything else, due to Valkyria Chronicles II / God of War: Ghost of Sparta / Dissidia [012] Duodecim / Patapon 3.

Its the downplaying attitude you project that I object to.

I was pointing at Dissidia as being a good example of combat controls that work right without feeling awkward on a handheld.

Dissidia's controls are spotty, this coming from someone that's invested 200+ hours between Dissidia and Duodecim. If the camera angle doesn't match your idea of the inputs, it goes its own way. Again, the only thing Dissidia really nails is depth of content and story. The fighting part is spotty and far too reliant on gear - accessories, especially breakables in particular - to be considered a good balanced game even if it did have legitimate online play.

And that's unfortunate considering SE made really, really great strides to make each character feel unique and balanced within the game. Laguna, Shantotto, Squall and the rest are just as fun as they should be to play. But SE just had to go and put too much emphasis on the RPG in Duodecim, and Dissidia was already pretty bad about that as is.

Love the game, I'd buy it all over again, but they really need to work on that accessory/network play thing. Not all of us live in Japan where everyone has a PSP in-hand.

Take the fanboy glasses off for a moment and realize that you're paying full price ($40) for an old game with a makeover.

I'll ignore the irony of this statement for the moment. OOT is not even close to my favorite Zelda.

Compare and contrast to your own example of Ico / Shadow of the Colossus, which are several years old, are excellent games in their own right, are also getting an HD makeover, and more importantly are being sold at a total combined price for two games that is lower than typical games on the platform. Or put it more succintly, you can get both games for the same price you can buy OoT3D.

Or take another example like The Sly Collection, which has three games for the same price as LoZ:OoT3D.

If OoT3D was, say $25 or even $30, I wouldn't quibble. $40 is just insulting.

How can you even begin to compare Sony with Nintendo on this?

They're priced that way because Team Ico and Sucker Punch really don't have a choice when it comes to SCEA. They're Sony first parties, so they have to submit the sadistic whims of SCEA if they want to see a dime for their work. We're talking about the guys that said no to Demon's Souls - a game partially developed by SCEJ - and effectively ended Working Designs as a localization studio.

How many PS2 games got shot down or constantly rescheduled or studios closed to suit the whims of those morons? Konami and Capcom didn't release their collections on PS2 at bargain bin prices because they wanted to - Sony told them they would or the releases wouldn't get approved.

All I can say is thank god for digital distribution, but just look at how it behooves SCEA to release PSOne classics in a timely fashion. They have no pride in the past, they act like they're actually ashamed of it.

What's insulting to me is that they take great strides to limit what we can enjoy, how soon we can enjoy it and then tell the developer how much its worth. I say let the developer and the consumer decide what's right, because SCEA clearly proved they can't with Demon's Souls.

All that aside, if there was a game people were frothing at the mouth for a remake of for the last decade that wasn't Final Fantasy VII, its Zelda:OOT. There is clearly a demand, people willing to meet that demand and pay the price - so who are you to say Nintendo or their customers are wrong here?

I don't think its that good, just like I don't think FFVII is that good, but its a good game nonetheless. If I could have a choice, I'd prefer they remade Majora's Mask because its the better game, but maybe if we're lucky that will happen down the road.

Additionally, you're overlooking the fact that HD Classics are not remakes. They are HD-enhanced ports. Think Metroid Prime Trilogy minus control upgrades here. Better textures, widescreen support, LOLtrophy support, HD resolutions- that's it. That's an enhanced port.

Devil Survivor Overclocked is also an enhanced port. They didn't rebuild the game from the ground up. They touched up the resolution and added a day more of content. And that's for a two year-old game, but its Atlus, so I'll go for it again as I loved that game. Chrono Trigger on PSX and DS were also enhanced ports

Zelda OOT 3D is a remake. Rebuilt from the ground-up - new engine, new graphics, new animation, new textures, new gameplay elements. new control scheme and new content. About the only thing that's recycled that I can see here are NPCs.

[Armando]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

so who are you to say Nintendo or their customers are wrong here?

He's not. He's saying it's not worth the money to him.

Zelda OOT 3D is a remake. Rebuilt from the ground-up - new engine, new graphics, new animation, new textures, new gameplay elements. new control scheme and new content. About the only thing that's recycled that I can see here are NPCs.

Is it really? They're using N64 polygon counts so they haven't overhauled the graphics as much as you claim. I appreciate that there's been improvements, but that's mostly in the anti-aliasing and texture departments, since the N64 didn't have the former and sucked at the latter. New gameplay elements seems to be new ways to aim your slingshot and bow, and being able to use the menu on the bottom screen. Convenient, but not groundbreaking. There's a boss rush mode - that's neat, I love those - but again that's also not hard to put together. Master's Quest is included - fantastic, that adds value to the port. But Master's Quest (like the Boss Rush) uses the same assets so once the main game is implemented, Master's Quest is probably trivial to add. I haven't seen anything that implies that the main game is fundamentally different from the original. Unless you can toss me a link that says the dungeons have changed or there's added plot, it's the same game with spruced up graphics.

I don't mean to devalue the game in any way, or the efforts of the developers. I like OoT as much as the next guy and I was happy to see it coming to the 3DS. But you can't tell me it costs the same to update an N64 game for the 3DS as it does to develop, say, Kid Icarus, which they REALLY had to develop from scratch in every way other than reusing Brawl's character model for Pit and Palutena.

[Absentia]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

Leave it to BBQ to let you know why your opinion is wrong. Never subtle on the gamer elitism.

[Icemage]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

I don't mean to devalue the game in any way, or the efforts of the developers. I like OoT as much as the next guy and I was happy to see it coming to the 3DS. But you can't tell me it costs the same to update an N64 game for the 3DS as it does to develop, say, Kid Icarus, which they REALLY had to develop from scratch in every way other than reusing Brawl's character model for Pit and Palutena.

Thank you. That was exactly the point I was making.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

I don't mean to devalue the game in any way, or the efforts of the developers. I like OoT as much as the next guy and I was happy to see it coming to the 3DS. But you can't tell me it costs the same to update an N64 game for the 3DS as it does to develop, say, Kid Icarus, which they REALLY had to develop from scratch in every way other than reusing Brawl's character model for Pit and Palutena.

What does development cost even have to do with anything?

Nintendo has released this game in three other flavors:

$49.99 cart
$10 VC version
Gamecube disc with OOT/ Master Quest + Majora's Mask

Its not like you're not without some options here and the latter two options are not difficult to obtain. And considering there's demand for a remake, quibbles about price are absolutely moot. If you don't like the price, go with the other three options.

What it boils down to is supply and demand and there is clearly there is demand for a remake even with those other options out there for several years now. That demand didn't come with price conditions, just "take my money." Additionally, you have people that just can't/won't go back to those versions because they're either graphics whores, don't have a Wii or just have a 3DS and have just never played it.

Also, I hate to point this out - but many PSP exclusives are still sold at the premium $39.99 today - where's the rage there?

The 3DS game price point will fade down to $34.99 and $29.99 as the 3DS ages and move into the holidays, but right now they're doing the $39.99 prices because they can. We went through this with the DS and the GBA before it. It will come down.

If you want to ride anyone's ass about charging $39.99 for a 3DS game, try Square-Enix and Bust-a-Move Universe. That's an iPhone game to me. If SE's goal there was to make Ubi Soft and Namco look like they were actually trying with their games, they succeeded there.

[Kailea]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

If you want to ride anyone's ass about charging $39.99 for a 3DS game, try Square-Enix and Bust-a-Move Universe. That's an iPhone game to me. If SE's goal there was to make Ubi Soft and Namco look like they were actually trying with their games, they succeeded there.

I bought that <--- sucker
but hell I love it so I dont mind so much, it is also my only 3DS game.

[Armando]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

What does development cost even have to do with anything?

You answered the question yourself.

If you want to ride anyone's ass about charging $39.99 for a 3DS game, try Square-Enix and Bust-a-Move Universe. That's an iPhone game to me.

I know there's demand BBQ. I know that's why they can get away with that price point. But Icemage is not part of that demand and the game is not significantly different from previous versions, so that price point isn't worth it to him. That's all he's saying.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

You answered the question yourself.

I showed you there were other options, but those are all carts or ROMs and not remakes.

Money was spent on the 3DS version. It matters not how much was spent as that has no bearing whatsoever on the price they decide to sell for as that price is based on demand.

Both Mario and Luigi DS games were made by a team of less than 15 people reusing assets from a GBA game and the games were entirely in 2D - that doesn't stop them from selling the whole thing for $34.99 and those games probably cost less to develop than this Zelda remake did.

But Icemage is not part of that demand and the game is not significantly different from previous versions, so that price point isn't worth it to him. That's all he's saying.

I get that he's being a miser, but there's no special discounts for that. The claim that there are no real changes is also baseless.

[Armando]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

I showed you there were other options, but those are all carts or ROMs and not remakes.

The claim that there are no real changes is also baseless.

Convince me it's a remake.

Tell me how it's different from the original. From what I've seen so far the changes have been:
* Anti-aliasing and better textures (but same polygon counts)
* Start menu is on the bottom screen, so you can change equipment faster
* Ability to aim certain weapons or move the camera using the accelerometers
* Minor control scheme tweaks for the sake of having it playable on the 3DS
* Boss rush mode

Those are all playability enhancements and graphics tweaks, but aren't really new gameplay besides the boss rush mode. But anyone can put a boss rush mode together, and that's something completely separate from the main quest.

Did the dungeons for the main game change? Have they added new side quests? More plot? I haven't seen anything pointing to this yet.

You argue Chrono Trigger DS is a port and not a remake, yet it sports more new content than OoT 3DS - a new series of side quests, new equipment, a (relatively useless) Pokemon-like mini-game, a new dungeon, new secret final boss and new ending (complete with anime cutscenes). Many of these extras tie in with Chrono Cross.

Your remake argument seems to hinge on the fact that they probably had to remake the engine from scratch, but they're still recycling the old game's assets. Odds are they had to recode Chrono Trigger to get it to run on the DS, since they added new content and the DS's screen doesn't match the SNES's output resolution, and they had to port over the PSX additions too. There's also the new mini-maps and touch-screen controls. So where is this arbitary line you're drawing between enhanced ports and remakes?

I get that he's being a miser, but there's no special discounts for that.

Who are you to say who's a miser and who's not? OoT is OoT. Until I see new plot it's the same game with some extras. Some people are happy to pay $40 to play OoT on the go with some tweaks and a 3D effect, to other people those features aren't significant enough to warrant the $40 expense.

Money was spent on the 3DS version. It matters not how much was spent as that has no bearing whatsoever on the price they decide to sell for as that price is based on demand.

You can have this argument or you can pick the "Bust-a-Move Universe is an iPhone game" argument. You can't have both. If the development cost has no bearing then your Bust-a-Move Universe comment is unwarranted.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

Did the dungeons for the main game change? Have they added new side quests? More plot? I haven't seen anything pointing to this yet.

E3 last year it was stated that there would likely be some changes tot he Water Temple, in addition to the interface changes would also adress issues there and elsewhere.

You argue Chrono Trigger DS is a port and not a remake, yet it sports more new content than OoT 3DS - a new series of side quests, new equipment, a (relatively useless) Pokemon-like mini-game, a new dungeon, new secret final boss and new ending (complete with anime cutscenes).

Wrong, I said enhanced port. That means same game, same assets and some tiny bits of content thrown in. Same thing Atlus is doing with Devil Survivor Overclock, really.

A remake does not necessarily mean new content, though it can certainly happen. Sometimes for the better and sometimes not-so-much. It doesn't have to mean an expanded story, either, and that's actually risky to play with. Resident Evil got an expanded mythos replacing the original canon and that worked (well, if you value RE canon, but all the same its there) and what MGS:TS got were arguably completely unnecessary gameplay changes, cast changes and cutscene embellishments.

Then you have the recent Tactics Ogre: LUCT which not only got numerous relevant refinements to improve gameplay best anything in its genre. The scenarios also got more branching paths, to the point that what Chrono Trigger got was merely fanservice additions.

For Zelda, you know for a fact Nintendo always plays things close to the chest, so we can't claim to have the complete picture. We still have almost two months before that game is out and they're still sitting on some details and really only starting the hype for it. They just posted the new trailer the other day. There could be a new dungeon in there, they did that for Link's Awakening DX and LTTP GBA.

If there's one thing that hasn't changed at all about the game - its the soundtrack, as evidenced by the new trailer released yesterday. I can't really say if that's a pro or a con, but the soundtrack wasn't bad in the first place, so perhaps it was just best to leave it be.

[Armando]

Re: Labyrinth no Kanata (3DS)

E3 last year it was stated that there would likely be some changes tot he Water Temple, in addition to the interface changes would also adress issues there and elsewhere.

That probably translates into making it a bit easier. If that's all there is, it's not much to write about.

Wrong, I said enhanced port.

Whoosh. I cut out one word to save time. We're arguing over the difference between enhanced ports and remakes. You've yet to convince me that OoT 3DS is a remake and not an enhanced port. You haven't given me any definitive criteria for what constitutes a remake, and haven't given me any strong evidence that OoT 3DS is one.

If you're just going to say "For Zelda, you know for a fact Nintendo always plays things close to the chest, so we can't claim to have the complete picture then you could've just said that from the beginning instead of calling Icemage a miser for not wanting to pay $40 for a game he's already played.

If it does have an extra dungeon, I still don't see how that constitutes a remake if CTDS's extra dungeon doesn't make it a remake instead of an enhanced port.

I would hope it does turn out to be substantially different from the original, but I think if it were, they'd have shown that off by now; it'd generate hype. If what they're teasing us with is enhanced textures and a much better menu system, I think it's safe to say the main quest is the same. Nintendo's idea of teasing us for Twilight Princess was showing us Link as a wolf and hinting at horseback fights; for Skyward Sword they teased us with that silver fairy. Why wouldn't they use an equally hype-generating reveal for OoT if they had one?