Marvel vs Capcom 3

[Malacite]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

People shouldn't just win because they've played longer and have perks/levels, they should win because they're skilled players but that's not always the case.

This is a problem I've had with CoD for the longest god damned time. And the way GT described X-Factor is you can be so far ahead, like literally with maybe a few hits of finishing the opponent's last character and they can use it to completely turn the fight around. That's a bit much, IMO.

[Ufgt]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

YouTube - sentinel mvc3 100%

You call this a good game? Sentinel near 1mil dmg combo off 1 meter hit confirmable anywhere on the stage.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

The only way a fighting game could be called "perfectly balanced" is if every character has a 50-50 chance of winning against every other character. That's never gonna happen in a game with 38 characters and 1,406 ways to assemble them into teams, so a tier list is inevitable.

Actually, I think it's achievable. Well, approximately achievable with an evolutionary algorithm type approach, if all (or most) the matches are mined (or, "participate in the selection fitness evaluation"--at least I think that's the lingo.)

Every move would be adjustable*--some combination execution speed, range, damage, stun duration (if any), etc. Moves which are used very infrequently can be randomly buffed (a small amount), and conversely moves which are over used can be nerfed randomly. (Yes, has to be random--random chance of being nerfed, random amount of adjustment--that's just how evolutionary algorithms are.)

Odds of adjustment would be based on how often the moves are used, how often the characters win, and how often they are picked. Over time and (lots and lots and lots) of matches, the system would make thousands of, if not hundreds of thousands of, automated adjustments.

Additionally, this approach would be able to respond to playstyle changes in the player community. Well, would lag behind a bit, but any new "overpowering" combo of move and/or characters eventually would be nerfed sufficiently.


* I was tempted to toss in "buffer-ability" and "buffer-ability duration", but I think that's not in this game? I have to confess I rather dislike this series, so don't know too much about it. lol.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

YouTube - sentinel mvc3 100%

You call this a good game? Sentinel near 1mil dmg combo off 1 meter hit confirmable anywhere on the stage.

And if you look in your very own link, there's Amaterasu, Tron and Wesker taking people out at 100%, too. It probably doesn't end there, either. I have obliterated Wesker with Hulk in a similar fashion. He came in at 100% and then he wasn't. I think there was a Gamma Charge and a Boulder thrown and then I did the floor-ripping super that finished him off along with the Dante, who my friend tried to tag in. All this under X-Factor

When that happens, I'm inclined to think its by design. You know, particularly when just about any character can do it.

[Armando]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

No, it isn't -- because the other character can get out of it with X-Factor! It's also a combo breaker.

Was reading up on X-factor in SRK, and according them, you can only X-factor while blocking, and while on the ground. So you can't get out of combos with it; you can only counter out of blocking. I also read the damage floor from combos gets raised to up to 60% instead of the usual 10%, and your assists get the benefits too.

@Itazura: I suppose that could in theory balance the game, but I doubt having your properties changed at random would be popular with the fans =P

When that happens, I'm inclined to think its by design. You know, particularly when just about any character can do it.

Surely it's by design - but that doesn't make it a good idea. What I'm seeing here is an ability so powerful that the outcome of matches hinges on how you use it. It's akin to playing competitive Smash Bros with items on.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

@Itazura: I suppose that could in theory balance the game, but I doubt having your properties changed at random would be popular with the fans =P

I'd sell it as a feature: "Fan balanced, to give your favorite heroes the fighting chance they deserve!"

Besides, changes would probably be locked down daily at beta and beyond. Rules also shouldn't change in mid match; it'd be stupid to download tables of properties during battle and eat up network bandwidth to potentially cause latency problems anyway.

For tournament use, can have a "rule lock down" mode, and allow LAN sync'ing of multiple consoles to a single one to ensure rules stay consistent for the duration of the event, and machines act identically.

[Tickmeoff]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

Was reading up on X-factor in SRK, and according them, you can only X-factor while blocking, and while on the ground. So you can't get out of combos with it; you can only counter out of blocking. I also read the damage floor from combos gets raised to up to 60% instead of the usual 10%, and your assists get the benefits too.

All true. There is no way out of anything mid combo.

I love X-Factor simply because it eradicates tiers.

You cannot eradicate tiers. A top tier character in X-Factor will always be better than a bottom tier character in X-Factor. Even if the exact bonuses they get from XFC are different, an amazing character is going to be better than an awful one regardless.

It is going to be a while before an accurate tier list will be conceived, though. Some of the MvC2 pros have some early ideas of who seems good so far (Wolverine, Sentinel, Ammy, Dante and Phoenix are generally considered to be among the top right now) but that's going to change as time goes on.

[Armando]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

I'd sell it as a feature: "Fan balanced, to give your favorite heroes the fighting chance they deserve!"

I say people probably wouldn't like it because the characters would be changing so often (even if only by little amounts) that refining your gameplay would be really hard. Some combo you learned just two weeks ago might break or stop being as effective all of a sudden. You might cause a see-saw effect as well. For example, some character makes heavy use of certain projectiles to control space. Because those projectiles are being spammed, they get nerfed. This breaks the character and it starts to lose; people stop using the projectiles as much. Then the algorithm buffs them again based on the fact that they're going unused and you're back at square 1.

Brawl had a thing where using an attack would weaken it and using other attacks would restore strengthened attacks, and it did more hurt than good. Characters who used certain moves heavily as part of their strategy (e.g. Yoshi's egg throws) got affected adversely and it even created some pseudo-infinites because it would weaken some moves faster than they'd gain knockback from the enemy's increased %. Sometimes it would ruin what would otherwise be a killing blow if the attack had been used before. It was a huge headache to deal with.

If total balance was the goal I think I'd rather see the game get balance patches periodically. By periodically I mean no less than 4 months, so the changes can sink in and be studied.

[Icemage]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

So I finally picked up my copy of MvC3 last night and got some time in. So here's some impressions from someone who's ho-hum at fighting games in general lately (because I hardly play them at all any more):

- This 3-attack button business is going to take a little getting used to. I keep having to gut-check and tell myself "yeah that button is still the right one to use". I'm sure I'll like it as I use it more, but all my muscle memory for a lot of moves is totally messed up right now.

- I'm REALLY rusty. I can't seem to make much progress beyond the 7th or 8th tier of the combo missions on any character. Getting some of those weird aerial combo chains is annoyingly difficult for me, even without 20+ button string Simon Says.

- The final boss is a cheeseball extreme on anything above Normal.

- X-Factor isn't as broken as you all are bellyaching about. Both players can use it, and it's not exactly an instant win card anyway. When used with all 3 team members still alive, it doesn't last very long, and doesn't do all that much. Long enough to do one extended combo to KO one opposing character maybe, if your timing is good. But that would take more than a little skill and a bit of luck against any half-aware opponent. I'm with BBQ on this - it's an interesting approach to leveling the playing field - or at least providing the illusion of doing so.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

All true. There is no way out of anything mid combo.

Well, except that you don't have to be blocking to activate X-Factor. You press the four face buttons. That is all that activates X-Factor

You cannot eradicate tiers

Tiers are the invention of players and tiers exist because players prefer large numbers over balanced gameplay. Trim down the numbers and the chance for balance increases dramatically. Problem is, no one wants an MvC3 with eight to ten characters, but it certainly be more balanced for.

I've said this abouf FFXI. We had too many melee classes and two support classes we didn't even need. Many jobs suffered because of the excess number of jobs. Imagine an FFXI where nothing was added after Summoner.

We'd have a totally different game and a different balance of power, likely for the better, too. Just imagine how much more quickly endgame events would flow, too. Thirteen jobs might not sound as enticing as 20, but our obsession with big numbers and variety gets us here.

But that doesn't mean players have no control over tiers. I wouldn't turn away a talented endgame applicant just because he's a "low tier" job. I'd really be weighing it against how many of that job my group had and how many people I really need for events, which I'd hope wasn't over 18 people for the LS.

But if I'm obsessing over tiers, then I'm inclined to think power in numbers and power in jobs rather than the dedication of the player. When I'm focused that way, I'm not worried about quality, but quantity. And those people that obsess over tiers try to dictate every corner of the damn game and even what jobs you "should" play. That's not fun. I understand time and efficiency arguments, but I'm going to take the reliable, helpful PUP over the late and inconsistent SAM.

That aside, in tournament play, I'm going to look to tighten things up as well. I don't care how good someone is with a high tier character. High tier characters are picked because they can be exploited, so the best option for me is to eliminate the people that exploit from the mix.

In Super Street Fighter IV 3D, I have the option to filter out my competition if they're using shortcut commands for combos. I want to fight someone doing manual input only. Now, if I can setup an online tourney and ban certain characters and Capcom gets data from all the players hosting tournaments, then they're going to see a dominant pattern of which characters get banned, then they're going to know what they need to work on.

As it stands, however, that probably isn't needed. They can just look at data they're getting back and seeing who's just plain overused, what team they end up in, what teams are overused and all that.

I've said it before. Fighters are a work in progress. Most online games are, but I don't think games like Counterstrike and SFIII TS have maintained over a decade of loyal players by being broken off the hinges.

[Karinya]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

100% combos depend a lot on who is being hit, since different characters have different amounts of HP and combos that will connect against Sentinel will start whiffing against Joe.

But I'm sure if the majority of players think the default damage setting is too high, Capcom can reduce it in a patch, either across the board or particularly targeting the most abuse-prone characters (or increase HP starting with the weakest characters). Combos for crazy amounts of hits and damage have always been part of the Vs series, though -- that's why you get three characters.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

[Armando]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

That aside, in tournament play, I'm going to look to tighten things up as well. I don't care how good someone is with a high tier character. High tier characters are picked because they can be exploited, so the best option for me is to eliminate the people that exploit from the mix.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. If the game isn't perfectly balanced some characters will be better and people will pick them because they're better, exploits or not. Are you saying everyone should pick low tier characters?

I've said it before. Fighters are a work in progress. Most online games are, but I don't think games like Counterstrike and SFIII TS have maintained over a decade of loyal players by being broken off the hinges.

Again, I'm not sure what you're saying. It's up for debate whether Third Strike is "broken off the hinges" but there are characters that are very clearly superior to others. You have a much better chance of winning using Chun-Li than using Elena.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. If the game isn't perfectly balanced some characters will be better and people will pick them before they're better, exploits or not. Are you saying everyone should pick low tier characters?

I'm saying if you want people of all experience levels to have a good time and for the experienced players to really show their stuff, then everyone should be willing to be flexible instead of just playing high tiers in competitive play.

If you're playing Pokemon and a newer player wants to do a Fire vs. Fire battle - are you seriously going to bring out Infernape when they picked Flareon? Or MewTwo when they just have a Pikachu?

I used to be the dick that would just pick my best fighter in the arcade when I knew I was going to smear the guy who just joined. The least I could do is pick a character I was less proficient with.

[Armando]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

That much I can agree with. If people just eat newbies alive all day they're going to shy away from the game and perhaps even hate it or the competitive scene in general. I got confused because I thought you were criticizing people using high tier characters in tournaments. People who don't know how to take it easy on less experienced players give gamers a bad name.