Marvel vs Capcom 3

[Malacite]

So the game's out, and I'm a little pissed that they took Mega Man out (They could have added X for once damn it, I was getting sick of the classic version anyway) and I"m wondering what everyone's team will be?

I'm gonna try Dante, Zero and either Wesker or Amaterasu. And now for CAD's hilarious new comic on the subject. I just love Ethan's reasoning for his team too, even though I'm a Cap fan.









^ I'd personally take Dante over Chris since he fits that group better but oh well (I never did agree with how the RE series ended anyway - like fucking Hell Chris was able to take on Wesker...)

[Icemage]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

I didn't get a chance to pick my copy up yesterday but I'll get it today. Not sure what my go-to team will be, but whatever it is, I'm building on Amaterasu since she's the reason I'm buying the game (hah!).


Icemage

[Tickmeoff]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

Current teams I've been running with:

Arthur, Trish, Dr. Doom. I play this entirely as a zoning/keep away team and it's worked quite well.

Felicia, Trish, Hsien-Ko. This is more of a rushdown team. Hsien-Ko isn't exactly fast, but her combos are strong, she has an OTG super and her swing assist is incredible.



Also you get -100 internets for posting Bum Tickley. Although I should thank you for direct linking to the image. I would never actually go to his site to add the filter to Adblock, but since you direct linked the image I can do it here.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

I poked around with it at the store

I liked teams with Ryu, Dante and Deadpool as well as Amaterasu, Arthur and Hulk.

Hulk is nasty with X-Factor. X-Factor (activated by pressing all four face buttons at the same time) gives your character more power the fewer people you have left standing, but it also has different effects for different characters. Think of it as a set of perks for the guy losing rather than the guy winnings, a way of evening the odds to keep matches interesting.

Naturally, it just makes Hulk angry and he wants to smash even more if he's the last man standing. His specials are devastating without X-Factor, so he's even more nasty with it. So you see, X-Factor might make you more inclined to save a character as a trump card. Its a pretty damn brilliant addition.

Ammy has stance changes that are easily done on fly, switching between reflector, rosary and sword. Her rosary attacks are great with a Flame bottle assist from Arthur, so long as the opponent isn't airborne at the time. Ammy and Viewtiful Joe both have a special that slows the enemy, though in Joe's case you have to be really close to make Slow connect otherwise it misses.

But Slow can be devastating to the likes of Hulk or Haggar.

Arthur is your ultimate projectile whore, but he's leveraged by the fact his armor can be knocked off if he takes too much damage in a combo. He can use a special to regain and upgrade the armor to King's Armor, which lets him perform his most powerful projectiles, including homing attacks with his crossbow. His Fire Bottle Special can be nastier than Ryu with his Hadoken special.

Chip damage whores like Storm, Magneto and Sentinel have been notably rebalanced, when you're under X-Factor especially, so they're not so overpowered this time out.

One thing I should mention, however, is that the button layout reflects what was done in Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom, so some punch and kick moves have migrated to share similar buttons. So yeah, in Ryu's case this would be DTF Mid or Fierce would and DTB with the same button would be Hurricane Kick. It takes some getting used to, but it works.

Supers are mercifully more easy to execute this time. They differ from character to character, but usually consist of DTF or DTB double motions and pressing two buttons. Team Supers depend on the Super meters level, but it pressing L2 on the PS3 version will call in all your guys if have at least a 3 on the meter.

Some solo supers are also reversals, such as the ones where Deadpool literally beats the crap out of people WITH the super meter or She-Hulk Hurling a car at you. And as I pointed out with Arthur, Ammy and Joe, some supers are really just support or power-up tactics than devastating attacks, but never underestimate them just because they don't do damage themselves. Some of Trish's basic moves reflect this, too, as she sets traps on the field like The Emperor in Dissidia does, but often to greater effect, stunning the opponent if they come into contact with her traps.

I was pleasantly surprised with how C.Viper panned out for this one, two. I know she's low tier and generally disliked in SSFIV, but her movelist here plays really well with a lot of different allies and assist characters. So she's a well-rounded pick here.

Wolvie and Spidey are about the same as they were before, I guess you can tell I favor the Capcom side and played it a bit more at the store. I had no chance to see how Akuma and Taskmaster panned out.

Dr. Doom seems mostly useless this time out and Iron Man feels almost like a wasted slot from what I saw of him, Joe can very easily counter just about anything Iron Man has to offer. Phoenix has very low defenses, for obvious reasons, because she can become Dark Phoenix and she's really devastating then, but you have to play her down to near-death to even activate it.

She-Hulk I did try. She was a pleasant surprise, she has good strength and respectable defense, as expected, but has a level of agility on par with Chun Li. She seems to be a very ideal partner for Haggar, because her moves are more commonly based around wrestling.

People complain about Haggar being too slow, but that's sort of the point. All the Capcom side strives for an unbelievable level of authenticity. I mean, Arther and Joe don't move quickly, either, they animate just as they would in their own games. With the mass projectile spamming Arthur can do, he shouldn't be able to just run away quickly, nor should Joe if he has his Slow, Six Machine and Mach Speed supers.

Haggar moves and acts like he's in Final Fight, which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

So, yeah, you can tell even though I don't have a PS3 or 360, I've had a great deal of fun and hands-on time with it. My only word of warning is don't come in expecting the same experience you had in MvC2, in fact, DO NOT come in expecting MvC2 at all. This is a whole new beast and I think all the changes are for the better here.

[Malacite]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

Also you get -100 internets for posting Bum Tickley. Although I should thank you for direct linking to the image. I would never actually go to his site to add the filter to Adblock, but since you direct linked the image I can do it here.

---------- Post added at 04:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:15 PM ----------

One thing I should mention, however, is that the button layout reflects what was done in Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom,

That's probably because that's the same team that made MvC 3.

Any info on how Zero and Dante play yet?

---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

So, yeah, you can tell even though I don't have a PS3 or 360, I've had a great deal of fun and hands-on time with it. My only word of warning is don't come in expecting the same experience you had in MvC2, in fact, DO NOT come in expecting MvC2 at all. This is a whole new beast and I think all the changes are for the better here.

Yeah I watched the GT review earlier today, they said it's much different and way more balanced too - they got rid of some of the really outrageous advanced crap people were using in MvC2. That said, it's still possible to start up a combo that can wipe out an entire lifebar. X-Factor is also something both players can use that can dramatically alter a fight, even so much as to completely reverse a 1-sided fight. Not sure if I care for that or not, but really my only complaint so far is the small cast compared to 2. MvC3 has like what, 24~26 characters vs 56 in MvC2?

Methinks Capcom is gonna start nickel and diming us on extra characters DLC ><

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

even so much as to completely reverse a 1-sided fight. Not sure if I care for that or not,

If the player dominating is a skilled player, it really shouldn't matter if the last guy standing has X-Factor at all. If you lose to an X-Factored buttonmasher, then you deserved to lose.

In fact, before I saw how this worked in MvC3, I had observed a similar concept that's going to be employed in one particular multplayer mode of Homefront. In that mode, you have one chance per round to fight. The more one team gets picked off, the more powerful the remaining players on the losing team become, essentially gaining stat boosts and perks because allies died.

Online multiplayer is well past its infancy, but is still largely infantile in the way its handled, spoiling the players and getting them to play longer rather than play better. What I think we're seeing with MvC3 and Homefront are some really grown-up solutions.

People shouldn't just win because they've played longer and have perks/levels, they should win because they're skilled players but that's not always the case.

[Armando]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

they said it's much different and way more balanced too - they got rid of some of the really outrageous advanced crap people were using in MvC2.

That sounds kinda vague.

If the player dominating is a skilled player, it really shouldn't matter if the last guy standing has X-Factor at all. If you lose to an X-Factored buttonmasher, then you deserved to lose.

It's easy to justify it with the trivial case, but what happens when the last guy standing isn't a buttonmasher? You gotta be reaaaally careful when it comes to giving bonuses to the losing side.

X-factor sounds interesting but it also seems like a very odd solution to the problem. The issue with being left with 1 character in MvC2 was the fact that assists are vital to winning. In that sense, being left with one character in MvC2 is worse than getting down to 1/3 of your HP in other fighters. That said, they could've just thrown in some tertiary assist that only comes out when the other 2 are dead (like MvC1 where you would call some character that wasn't in your team.)

What kind of stuff can X-factor do to other characters that doesn't involve damage boosts?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

That sounds kinda vague.It's easy to justify it with the trivial case, but what happens when the last guy standing isn't a buttonmasher? You gotta be reaaaally careful when it comes to giving bonuses to the losing side.

X-factor sounds interesting but it also seems like a very odd solution to the problem. The issue with being left with 1 character in MvC2 was the fact that assists are vital to winning. In that sense, being left with one character in MvC2 is worse than getting down to 1/3 of your HP in other fighters. That said, they could've just thrown in some tertiary assist that only comes out when the other 2 are dead (like MvC1 where you would call some character that wasn't in your team.)

What kind of stuff can X-factor do to other characters that doesn't involve damage boosts?

X-Factor gives some other characters a speed boost and a better defense rating, which would be critical if Phoenix was your last character standing. On the whole, though, everyone gets to enjoy some regenerating healing factor while its active, though it still plays by the same rules as health regens during tag out. In fact, Phoenix is the only character that can reset her health to full with Dark Phoenix. Phoenix is that much of a glass cannon, but she can be a pretty fucking scary glass cannon.

Assists are much more useful in MvC3 than either of the previous games, just for the sheer variety of what they can be used to do. I'd say some characters shine more with assists than others, perhaps made that way because they don't have godly movesets. As I said before, C. Viper became a well-rounded character in this game because what she does meshes with assists so well and she functions well as an assists. By herself, she has enough to hold her own, but she'll never have the well-worn moves of Ryu or Hulk.

Plus, X-Factor can be used to make up for losing them, but X-Factor can only be used once per match.

A 3-on-3 game needs to have speedier outcomes no matter how you look at it. You can't have it become what Super Street Fighter IV is, which makes matches longer by reducing the damage lengthy combos can do.

I also think X-Factor prevents the game becoming a farce where only high-tier characters are played. Most of the characters here are just as powerful as any other, if expressed in different ways.

Ammy and VJ are pretty low/mid tier on damage, but land Slow and activate X-Factor and they are combo monsters. Hulk can be a slow, predictable character, but X-Factored he's not slow anymore and his supers launch faster.

[Tickmeoff]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

What kind of stuff can X-factor do to other characters that doesn't involve damage boosts?

X-Factor is a lot more than just a damage boost. It prevents chip damage, heals your red bar very rapidly, nearly removes damage scaling in combos and increases character movement speed. It can be used at any time too, so you can super, X-Factor, super again immediately. Even with a level 1 X-Factor this is basically a guaranteed method of killing a single character.

It's kind of neat, but I'd rather the game be without it. I mean, look at this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pk56Thely8]YouTube - MvC3: Dormammu - Combo 01 - The Destroyer![/ame]


This is a simple bread and butter followed by super, XFC, super and it does enough damage to overkill Sentinel by 300k. That's enough to kill Phoenix four times. If you happen to catch one of their assists in this, congrats, you just killed 2 of their 3 characters in a single combo, and you're still in X-Factor.

This is the only real problem I have with the game right now. Damage output across the board is WAY too high. Almost every character in the game is capable of killing off a single character with 1 combo, and the ones that can't can still do it in 2. Add X-Factor to that and you have a mess of a game.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

This is the only real problem I have with the game right now. Damage output across the board is WAY too high. Almost every character in the game is capable of killing off a single character with 1 combo, and the ones that can't can still do it in 2. Add X-Factor to that and you have a mess of a game.

So your complaint is the game is exactly what it's always wanted to be.

The second we take way something like X-Factor, the problem of characters being shoved into tiers returns.

We have had so many fighters and brawlers promise balance, hype that we can play competitively with our favorites and how many games has that ever been true? Either you got lucky and your favorite just happened to be high teir or you were fucked. Or maybe the developer decided they needed to screw with what worked and tear that high tier character apart, leaving fans with favorite characters that were broken beyond repair.

People were straight whoring Sentinel, Magneto and Storm in MvC2 because they could play keep away and do chip damage. I love characters with a distance game, but that's just bullshit right there.

Then you have characters like Ivy and Astaroth in Soul Calibur. Ivy was meant to rule the distance game, Astaroth in SC2, for whatever reason, beat her with a collision exploit and of all the things that got refined in SC2, that never got fixed for some reason. It was as if Namco wanted Astaroth to be a cheat.

Then comes SCIII and they decide to change how everyone plays to fuck with the tiers and again lets Astaroth rule your shit. Then they do it AGAIN in SCIV. I'll concede that SCIV was a slight improvement, but now all my favorites are totally alien to me now

MvC3 only tweaks movelists for its new system, it doesn't make me fucking relearn Ryu's Dragon Punch or change how effective his moves are.

I love X-Factor simply because it eradicates tiers. You still have to build a good, balanced team, but its no longer reliant on who's "best" and what everyone else is playing. There's plenty of character you like that can tear it up.

Ultimately, MvC is supposed to be about fast, strategic play leading into a total blowout if you can help it. Its not supposed to be as technical as SFIII:TS, CvSNK or Virtua Fighter.

[Ufgt]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

This game blows.

Xfactor and hit stun decay are like the nightmares of doujin fighters. It's the epitome of lazy balancing.

Sentinel is again god tier. Xfactor block damage is so lol.

[Armando]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

The second we take way something like X-Factor, the problem of characters being shoved into tiers returns.

There's no such thing as a perfectly balanced game. Tiers will always happen no matter what.

It prevents chip damage, heals your red bar very rapidly, nearly removes damage scaling in combos and increases character movement speed. It can be used at any time too, so you can super, X-Factor, super again immediately. Even with a level 1 X-Factor this is basically a guaranteed method of killing a single character.

Well that's just retarded. You don't fuck with damage scaling.

So your complaint is the game is exactly what it's always wanted to be.

Huh? Killing a character in one combo is hard to do in MvC2. You'd generally need to do a reset (a mix-up that breaks the combo and starts it anew, thus starting over with no damage scaling) or have 3+ super bars to chain with Sentinel or Cable. Being able to take out a character just like that is a very big deal.

People were straight whoring Sentinel, Magneto and Storm in MvC2 because they could play keep away and do chip damage. I love characters with a distance game, but that's just bullshit right there.

Magneto and Sentinel don't kill by chip damage. Magneto keeps doing mix-ups in your face 'til he lands a hit and proceeds to infinite you 'til the person screws up. Sentinel uses his agility and crazy range to dominate you and Storm is there to charge the super bar and punish people with Hailstorms.

Ultimately, MvC is supposed to be about fast, strategic play leading into a total blowout if you can help it. Its not supposed to be as technical as SFIII:TS, CvSNK or Virtua Fighter.

You say that, yet MvC2 is just as technical and perhaps more demanding on the finger dexterity than those games.

[Karinya]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

X-Factor is a lot more than just a damage boost. It prevents chip damage, heals your red bar very rapidly, nearly removes damage scaling in combos and increases character movement speed. It can be used at any time too, so you can super, X-Factor, super again immediately. Even with a level 1 X-Factor this is basically a guaranteed method of killing a single character.

No, it isn't -- because the other character can get out of it with X-Factor! It's also a combo breaker.

The Combometer keeps counting as long as the opponent can't use *ordinary blocking*, but that doesn't mean that everything that registers on the Combometer is 100% unavoidable/untechable. So you have to take the training room stuff with a grain of salt.

This is the only real problem I have with the game right now. Damage output across the board is WAY too high. Almost every character in the game is capable of killing off a single character with 1 combo, and the ones that can't can still do it in 2. Add X-Factor to that and you have a mess of a game.

Damage is adjustable in game options. Although I'm not sure how that works in online play -- the host sets it?

In any case, you're talking about theorycraft combos where the opponent walks up to 1 inch from you without attacking or blocking, not things you're actually going to land in a competitive match.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

You say that, yet MvC2 is just as technical and perhaps more demanding on the finger dexterity than those games.

The sign of a really technical fighter is when you dedicate mastery to one or two characters at best. I can't for the life of me dedicate attention to learning more than two or three characters for games like Tekken, Soul Calibur or Virtua Fighter. These are games with vast movelists and they don't even have tension meters.

Meanwhile I can play dozens of these characters because there's far less to memories and counter/reversals/cancels and whatever are easier to pull off.

There's no such thing as a perfectly balanced game. Tiers will always happen no matter what.

Well, the jury's going to be out for months on this one with the roster still expanding along with DLC characters, gameplay modes and patches. Even if this were an arcade release, it wouldn't be the finalized version of that release. There's tons of data to be collected. You can test a game like this into the floor and you're still going to miss some things.

In any competitive or co-operative game, you have the elite, the faux elite and the casuals. The faux elite is usually the loudest, they just ape whatever the real elite have learned. The elite put out information with everyone's best interests at heart, from advanced to causal players. the faux elite take that information to an extreme telling everyone this is the "only way" it can be played and they're the ones that solidify tiers because they unthinkingly copy the elite.

And who's idea is it to ban certain characters from competitive play? The elite, so the faux elite can be kicked to curb and those there to have fun can have it.

I disagree that there are no perfectly balanced games - I could spend a good deal of time listing some of them, but most of them don't pertain to the fighting genre - but in the case of fighters there's a reason competitive play is policed at tournaments. Its so the people in it for fun can, you know, have fun. The elite player isn't out the ruin the casual player's day, after all, he's out to help.

Capcom took on some of the best MvC2 players on as advisers and testers for this game. While I personally believe nothing will ever replace the arcade-tested fighter, Capcom does their best to balance it based on online and tournament feedback.

This game is still a work in progress and while I lament that sort of thing happening with single-player games these days, its something fighters have been since the emergence of the genre in the early 90s. They will always be works in progress. We really can't say what this game is until the last patch is done and the roster is finalized.

X-factor, however, is the most versatile counter/desparation tactic I've seen in a fighter. It would be bad if you got more than one charge of it per fight, but with one in your pocket per match, it can be a real gamechanger and I think that's good for every player involved.

[Armando]

Re: Marvel vs Capcom 3

Meanwhile I can play dozens of these characters because there's far less to memories and counter/reversals/cancels and whatever are easier to pull off.

You can play the characters, but not necessarily effectively. Knowing all the moves doesn't translate into knowing how to use them properly. Knowing how to use 12 characters also doesn't mean you're making good teams out of them, or that you're using the team properly.

Having huge move lists doesn't instantly translate into depth (though it can) - it translates into a harsher learning curve for beginners. SSB Melee only has 2 attack buttons, with all characters having almost exactly the same number of normal attacks and special attacks, but it's just as deep as other fighters. (EDIT: Case in point, Brawl is what it is because Sakurai or someone else at Nintendo decided Melee was too hard.)

I disagree that there are no perfectly balanced games - I could spend a good deal of time listing some of them, but most of them don't pertain to the fighting genre - but in the case of fighters there's a reason competitive play is policed at tournaments.

The only way for a fighter to not have a tier list is if it's perfectly balanced. The only way a fighting game could be called "perfectly balanced" is if every character has a 50-50 chance of winning against every other character. That's never gonna happen in a game with 38 characters and 1,406 ways to assemble them into teams, so a tier list is inevitable.