Cataclysm

[DakAttack]

Re: Cataclysm

My DK is now level 72, and I'm hoping I can boost him up to 80 and earn an heirloom item or two before Cataclysm, to make leveling a little easier.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Cataclysm

For the hell of it, I decided to start a new toon, an Orc Hunter. Basically not going to like rush to level it or anything, will probably log onto it a few times a week, run out the rested XP bonus, and then log back to my main. More of a "something to do when there's nothing to do on my main but I don't feel like logging out completely" toon.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Cataclysm

Soooo... Make skills have a PvE and PvP side like EQ2 or whatever? I'm sorry, but starting location and race has no bearing on how overpowered one class is compared to another in WoW. Blizzard uses the same exact mobs in all the starting areas, except they have different skins.

My point was with a game so vast, so largely populated and so dynamic it is impossible- repeat, IMPOSSIBLE - to keep both PvE and PvP balanced.

The only way to balance it at all is to do the one thing no one wants:

Make a level cap for PvP and force it on the players when engaging in PvP.

No one will want it, no one will support it but its the only answer because there is no way to balance PvP and PvE if both must exist.

[Etra]

Re: Cataclysm

My point was with a game so vast, so largely populated and so dynamic it is impossible- repeat, IMPOSSIBLE - to keep both PvE and PvP balanced.

The only way to balance it at all is to do the one thing no one wants:

Make a level cap for PvP and force it on the players when engaging in PvP.

No one will want it, no one will support it but its the only answer because there is no way to balance PvP and PvE if both must exist.

Make two separate systems. One for PvP and another for PvE.

This would not be hard for Blizzard to do in its current state of "excellence." However, I guess this would be too difficult for the WoW player to grasp, 'cause, you know, Blizzard lets people hit a button and the game auto-distributes your talents for you so there's 0 thinking required.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Cataclysm

Uh, no it doesn't. The only time you can "hit a button" to choose your talents is after you've learned how to dual spec. Then you can switch between two with ease, but it definitely does not assign them for you.

There is a lot of shit that is stupidly easy in WoW, some of which I appreciate (seriously, it's so nice to not have to meet some arbitrary requirement just to get on a zeppelin) and some of which I find idiotic, but if you're going to bitch about WoW being easy, at least get your shit right.

[DakAttack]

Re: Cataclysm

I think they dumbed down a lot of the content for ease of passing through to WotLK. Unfortunately, they shot themselves in the foot with a lot of the content they released for those expansions, because most people are no longer seeing any bit of it. I hope they don't do the same thing with Cataclysm.

Now that I'm in Northrend again, I'm having a lot of fun with the quests they're offering. Borean Tundra just wouldn't end, but a lot of the quests were more than a little interesting. Plus, having a flying mount at 70 means I can skip over a lot of the trash fights and get to the objectives. I hope they remake Azeroth like this.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Cataclysm

Make two separate systems. One for PvP and another for PvE.

Yes, systems where hard-earned abilities and talents function dramatically different from PvP and PvE.

Someone will still come out ahead of all the rest just because of the way jobs grow.

We're not talking about some FPS here where everyone is given the same potential and you're only potentially dealing with up to 32 people at a time. We're talking about a game that lets people pick totally different profession.

Just look at Hunter in PvE - they've always been fucked at endgame and its not because the job is bad, its just that managing a pet AI and trapping don't seem to mix that well - iust like pet melee in a Bind/Sleep isn't practical for FFXI event.

We could strengthen bind and trapping further, but guess what? If you do that, you just turned PvE in big mana/ammburn in either game.

See what happens when you try too hard to balance? Poke one thing too much and something else comes undone. There are just some situations that will suck for one job, but fix it and everyone else gets left in the dust. Its why pet jobs are just an ongoing conundrum in MMORPGs. Everquest is still the only one that ever got close to getting it right and even then, Enchanters are almost too desireable for it.

They have powerful binding and charming abilities, they are the ultimate crowd controllers. They're also manabatteries, which is exactly what puts them over-the-top on the power scale. But who do you give it to? Druids? Wizards? About the only way to rectify it is to make Enchanter quite useless in actual combat.

And rangers, doesn't matter what MMO we're talking about. They start out as gods most of the time, they get power from their ammo, which means they get power from resources. And while such high-cost and material management should return great power - players who don't make the same investments will begin to complain. They'll say they "pay to play" their jobs even though the non-consumable jobs can't even come close to comparing.

WoW has opted to just give Hunter another kick to the nads. Now they don't have to purchase of craft ammo, so they can be just like everyone else on a melee level. Except it seems the "free ammo" doesn't scale with the Hunter's level like the old ammo did, so now are they only asked to give up a great deal of DPS from pets in raids, now they've lost some on guns and bows as well. This will push them even further into just being endgame trappers.

The problem is its an MMORPG, really. Take out all these large numbers of players and excess number of race/job combos and most of these problems will go away. Scale this down to something on the Diablo level and you don't have these vast issues.

[DakAttack]

Re: Cataclysm

Yes, systems where hard-earned abilities and talents function dramatically different from PvP and PvE.

Someone will still come out ahead of all the rest just because of the way jobs grow.

We're not talking about some FPS here where everyone is given the same potential and you're only potentially dealing with up to 32 people at a time. We're talking about a game that lets people pick totally different profession.

Just look at Hunter in PvE - they've always been fucked at endgame and its not because the job is bad, its just that managing a pet AI and trapping don't seem to mix that well - iust like pet melee in a Bind/Sleep isn't practical for FFXI event.

We could strengthen bind and trapping further, but guess what? If you do that, you just turned PvE in big mana/ammburn in either game.

See what happens when you try too hard to balance? Poke one thing too much and something else comes undone. There are just some situations that will suck for one job, but fix it and everyone else gets left in the dust. Its why pet jobs are just an ongoing conundrum in MMORPGs. Everquest is still the only one that ever got close to getting it right and even then, Enchanters are almost too desireable for it.

They have powerful binding and charming abilities, they are the ultimate crowd controllers. They're also manabatteries, which is exactly what puts them over-the-top on the power scale. But who do you give it to? Druids? Wizards? About the only way to rectify it is to make Enchanter quite useless in actual combat.

And rangers, doesn't matter what MMO we're talking about. They start out as gods most of the time, they get power from their ammo, which means they get power from resources. And while such high-cost and material management should return great power - players who don't make the same investments will begin to complain. They'll say they "pay to play" their jobs even though the non-consumable jobs can't even come close to comparing.

WoW has opted to just give Hunter another kick to the nads. Now they don't have to purchase of craft ammo, so they can be just like everyone else on a melee level. Except it seems the "free ammo" doesn't scale with the Hunter's level like the old ammo did, so now are they only asked to give up a great deal of DPS from pets in raids, now they've lost some on guns and bows as well. This will push them even further into just being endgame trappers.

The problem is its an MMORPG, really. Take out all these large numbers of players and excess number of race/job combos and most of these problems will go away. Scale this down to something on the Diablo level and you don't have these vast issues.

I can't say I share your pessimism. Balance is entirely possible, but they need to reduce class bias within the team of individuals responsible for it. It would probably be best if a director was charged with coordinating the different team members according to his or her own vision of balance. That would probably bring them closer than they ever have been.

[Absentia]

Re: Cataclysm

Are people really this excited for Cataclysm?

I mean, its not Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood, Killzone 3, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Call of Duty Black ups and the like?

Maybe I've just lost my taste for MMORPGs, but I can't see why people would still be going on WoW after sooooo long and it being kinda stone dumb from top to bottom.

Can you not grasp that people may enjoy a game not on your personal radar?

Anyway, I think I'll take some time on my main to explore Azeroth and see how everything's changed. It'll be nice to actually fly around Azeroth this time around. Until then, I suppose it's going to be interesting getting some of my reputation grinds done and pray that I can get the Zulian Tiger from ZG before it's gone. D:

[Firewind]

Re: Cataclysm

Adding to the PvE/PvP balance debate:

Warhammer Online does a good job in this as it only balances for PvP. Things end up working out find for instances anyway because they are only ever 6 man instances there was a 24 man one for top end Sovereign gear but it was taken out in favour of a huge 3 round 24vs24 Battleground once one side manages to push the other back to their capital.

When there was the 24 man instance people would ONLY take the best because the bosses are essentially DPS races with little margin for error. If one job is lacking then your raid fails.

When WAR took out this 24 man instance, all that was left was the 6 man and guess what? Class balance was restored because a 6 man on WAR means you will always take the following:

Main Tank (Usually a Swordmaster, Black Orc, Ironbreaker or Blackguard)
Off Tank (Usually one of the above in a damage dealer spec and gear loadout but with a shield to switch to)
Damage Dealer (Any of the classes works fine, even pet jobs if they spec for combat without one)
Damage Dealer/Kiter/AoE (Second damage dealer though Shadow Warriors and Squig Herders make nice kiters and Bright Wizards, Sorceresses, Slayers and Choppas are nice if you need the AoE)
Main Healer (Usually an Archmage or Shaman for silly burst heals but Runepreists and Zealots worked well if the tank's mitigation gear was up to scratch)
Backup Healer (Pretty much always a Warrior Priest or Disciple of Khaine)

The leftover tanks: Knight of the Blazing Sun and Chosen are good tanks, it's just they are more suited to PvP tanks due to auras making pulls difficult for the group. The pet jobs: Squig Herder, White Lion, Engineer and Magus can all do well though because pets and turrets are buggy as hell they tend to cause problems.

Combat is very fast paced on WAR so two tanks and two healers is a necessity. It's fine if the off tank and backup healer are damage spec though as long as they don't forget their primary roles.

WoW seems to be ripping off a lot of WAR with Cataclysm and they could really do with ripping off WAR's favouring of the 6 man dynamic over 25 man raids. I can't name a single person who LIKES raiding anyway. The only reason you raid is for the shiny pixels. If you tell me you enjoy raiding then you are a troll or a bad liar.

[DakAttack]

Re: Cataclysm

Adding to the PvE/PvP balance debate:

Warhammer Online does a good job in this as it only balances for PvP. Things end up working out find for instances anyway because they are only ever 6 man instances there was a 24 man one for top end Sovereign gear but it was taken out in favour of a huge 3 round 24vs24 Battleground once one side manages to push the other back to their capital.

When there was the 24 man instance people would ONLY take the best because the bosses are essentially DPS races with little margin for error. If one job is lacking then your raid fails.

When WAR took out this 24 man instance, all that was left was the 6 man and guess what? Class balance was restored because a 6 man on WAR means you will always take the following:

Main Tank (Usually a Swordmaster, Black Orc, Ironbreaker or Blackguard)
Off Tank (Usually one of the above in a damage dealer spec and gear loadout but with a shield to switch to)
Damage Dealer (Any of the classes works fine, even pet jobs if they spec for combat without one)
Damage Dealer/Kiter/AoE (Second damage dealer though Shadow Warriors and Squig Herders make nice kiters and Bright Wizards, Sorceresses, Slayers and Choppas are nice if you need the AoE)
Main Healer (Usually an Archmage or Shaman for silly burst heals but Runepreists and Zealots worked well if the tank's mitigation gear was up to scratch)
Backup Healer (Pretty much always a Warrior Priest or Disciple of Khaine)

The leftover tanks: Knight of the Blazing Sun and Chosen are good tanks, it's just they are more suited to PvP tanks due to auras making pulls difficult for the group. The pet jobs: Squig Herder, White Lion, Engineer and Magus can all do well though because pets and turrets are buggy as hell they tend to cause problems.

Combat is very fast paced on WAR so two tanks and two healers is a necessity. It's fine if the off tank and backup healer are damage spec though as long as they don't forget their primary roles.

WoW seems to be ripping off a lot of WAR with Cataclysm and they could really do with ripping off WAR's favouring of the 6 man dynamic over 25 man raids. I can't name a single person who LIKES raiding anyway. The only reason you raid is for the shiny pixels. If you tell me you enjoy raiding then you are a troll or a bad liar.

I wouldn't mind raids if they weren't a huge clusterfuck of chaos. They should build raids that seperate the 5-man parties and task them with completing seperate objectives. A raid similar to Alterac Valley in concept wouldn't be terrible; to make fighting the main boss easier the players must take down smaller bosses, but they're also fighting the clock and must know when to "all-in".

[Ufgt]

Re: Cataclysm

The only reason you raid is for the shiny pixels. If you tell me you enjoy raiding then you are a troll or a bad liar.

LOL. I don't think that's really fair. I enjoy raiding when it's learning the fights the first few times or trying out a new strategy. I don't like raiding once it is on farm status. I think there's plenty of raids right now to keep casuals occupied for a while. Besides, getting 25 retards together to try to do something in PUGs is hilarious. I don't think I will ever get tired of it.

[Firewind]

Re: Cataclysm

Besides, getting 25 retards together to try to do something in PUGs is hilarious. I don't think I will ever get tired of it.

Okay fair enough, I stand corrected.

[DakAttack]

Re: Cataclysm

Anybody feeling the want to join up on a single server? It'd have to be PvE, since my current characters are PvE, although I really miss PvP servers... Anyways, our guild would be called NOTORIOUS MONSTERS.

[Ufgt]

Re: Cataclysm

Anybody feeling the want to join up on a single server? It'd have to be PvE, since my current characters are PvE, although I really miss PvP servers... Anyways, our guild would be called NOTORIOUS MONSTERS.

I am down for making an alt somewhere, just tell me where. Will most likely be a Huntard.

Although, play times might be a little crazy since some are in UK and some are in NA. But no matter, just let me know.