Guild Wars 2

[Mezlo]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Jesus 2.0.

I've actually already beaten this game... twice...

[Takelli]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

I think anyone who thinks players aren't going to try to cling to the old tactics/strategies/paradigm/whatever is fooling themselves.

Come on, some one has to rain on your guys' parade or you'll just end up heartbroken when the game finally releases and doesn't turn out to be Jesus 2.0.

This is Arena Net though... Don't under estimate these guys. They broke off from Blizzard, as GW1 they wanted to charge for, and was going to be WoW.

Also, the game is based around PvP, not PvE, but these guys are great at balancing both, with out breaking the other.

But, back to what I was saying, these guys know how to market, and have a great fan base. The community is great, and they do things not always by the book. If anyone can keep people from going the "Holy trinity" route, its these guys.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Drinking the koolaid, etc etc.

I want this game to kick ass just as much as you guys do, but I would suggest you temper your enthusiasm with a healthy dose of skepticism.

[Raydeus]

Re: Guild Wars 2

I say the exact same thing to guys I know that want to get married. Years later they look at me with those defeated eyes they get and tell me how much they wish they had listened to me.

And people still asks me why I'm still single...

Though I got to say, even if it fails to meet expectations at least GW2 will be way cheaper than a divorce.

[Etra]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

I think anyone who thinks players aren't going to try to cling to the old tactics/strategies/paradigm/whatever is fooling themselves.

Come on, some one has to rain on your guys' parade or you'll just end up heartbroken when the game finally releases and doesn't turn out to be Jesus 2.0.

I never believed in Jesus 1.0 in the first place. Why would I believe 2.0 was coming?

[Mezlo]

Re: Guild Wars 2

And people still asks me why I'm still single...

You are humped back and have 4 nipples?

[Raydeus]

Re: Guild Wars 2

You are humped back and have 4 nipples?

Chicks dig that kinda thing though, otherwise Yggy wouldn't be married.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Guild Wars 2

For what it's worth, I think cid is both right and not. He's right in that we need to maintain healthy skepticism lest we be immensely let down, and that ANet more-or-less simply renamed their trinity, and that we are creatures of habit.

Where he's likely to be wrong are his assessment of the implications, as in, X is always going to be pigeonholed into Y role. ANet is well aware that players are going to initially try to find their old trinity comfort zone, which is precisely why they're so desperate to push their "new" trinity, to the point where their game is designed such that someone in a hyper-specialized (and "unfun" according to ANet) role ends up being incredibly inefficient and burdened with opportunity cost. To wit, somebody completely focused on healing potency and efficacy is over-focused on what is, in ANet's view, the reactive side of support, when they could instead be proactive and do something like, say, give the group a damage buff (and perhaps even take a few pot-shots yourself) so that the mob dies faster and less healing is needed.

Even if it isn't "healing" anymore, there's still cid's concern that any given player will be "burdened" with being the sole support player while everybody else "bashes skulls in". Which may even be the case if a strategy calls for a zerg rush, in which case it's a matter of game balance. Ideally, however, ultimately nobody is going to end up playing a "new trinity" role that they don't want to play, given a balanced game. What I think ANet is aiming for is for not classes, but the players themselves to be the variable that determines which part of that trinity any given character plays. It's the person behind the computer who plays what they're calling damage or support or control, not the profession that they're playing. Which would be wonderful that professions would be independent of role (as in, any job can perform any role, given the proper set-up for that role), but again, this assuming that ANet can pull it off.

[Takelli]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Thing with what you said Cid, is that there is no way for one person to be put in a pure support type role, as NO ONE PROFESSION HAS ANY HEALING SPELLS BESIDES SELF HEAL.

How many times do I need to say that?

[cidbahamut]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Where he's likely to be wrong are his assessment of the implications, as in, X is always going to be pigeonholed into Y role.

Metagaming is a reality that people need to accept.

X will get pigeonholed into role Y. The question is how often, which will be determined by a combination of how well the game is balanced and how strongly the playerbase feels about said balance. If things go smoothly a certain combination will always be preferred, but not enough that people will get bent out of shape over it. If the developers botch things, players will end up browbeating those who don't conform to the metagame and this is likely to be the default state of the game. ArenaNet is fighting an uphill battle to overcome an extremely well entrenched paradigm within the industry. They're starting this at a disadvantage and players will gravitate to the familiar regardless of what ArenaNet intends. If GW2 delivers in full on all of its promises, it might have a chance to overcome all of that, but if it falters it will slip right back into the old paradigm.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Guild Wars 2

It's ambitious, sure, but I feel that you're being excessively pessimistic about it.

As far as metagaming is concerned, I think we can consider FFXI's "Red Mage melee" to be the worst-case scenario, where a significant contingent of X players want to play Z role instead of just Y (because Z is a cooler letter and all), but a noticeable portion of that contingent are just plain embarrassingly bad players who can't even spec for Z properly. There still will be players who push X's Z capacity to its limit and shake off any misconceptions about X to those around them, or at the very least enjoy playing as a Z X to its fullest in the company of their friends. Ultimately, it's a balance issue that has to be dealt with before it becomes that much of a playerbase issue.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Guild Wars 2

It's ambitious, sure, but I feel that you're being excessively pessimistic about it.

Oh I totally am.

On the flipside, I feel everyone is being excessively optimistic about this game to the point where it's difficult to take them seriously because they don't even acknowledge the possibility of there being flaws or hang-ups in what GW2 is attempting.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Guild Wars 2

Oh I totally am.

On the flipside, I feel everyone is being excessively optimistic about this game to the point where it's difficult to take them seriously because they don't even acknowledge the possibility of there being flaws or hang-ups in what GW2 is attempting.

Hey, lookit that, something with which I agree 99%. My only hangup is with the word "everyone," as I prefer to think that myself (and quite possibly a handful of others) are being more cautiously optimistic, at most.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Guild Wars 2

For those of you who haven't heard yet, Guild Wars 2 is coming out August 28, 2012.
Announcing the Guild Wars 2 Launch Date – ArenaNet Blog

[Mezlo]

Re: Guild Wars 2

We should all get on the same server! I already ordered mine. I ordered it back in February when I thought it was coming out in March...