So... Starcraft 2?

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Zealots are pretty awesome under the right circumstances. In a match, last night, I realized the entire enemy team was going ground units, so I began teching ground upgrades and decided to warp in purely zealots. I would have been better off building collossi, but this was still hella fun. I swept across the map with about 28 zealots destroying expansions and running right through hydras, stalkers, and marines. It felt pretty good to completely melt their armies, and I was able to fuel mine with two gold mineral patches. Oddly enough, it was 3v3, and I was pretty much doing all the work while one teammate turtled and the other did mostly nothing. I exhausted most of the resources on the map and eventually ran out of zealots, but, luckily, the teammate turtling had about a dozen each of Battlecruisers, Vikings, and Banshees. GG.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Fungal Growth + Banelings = GG Bio Ball.

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Fungal Growth + Banelings = GG Bio Ball.

Speaking of which... if you want to see how a pro that does not adhere to standards play zerg, then you really ought to check TLO's play. He has a Korean account now and is showing Korean players how to own.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WEpP2qpslU]YouTube - TheLittleOne vs NesTea - Part 1/2 - ZvZ - StarCraft 2[/ame]

Taking the zerg play right to the playas. I think that's a true definition of PRO.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Ugh Colossi could use a nerf. They hard counter half of the entire game, how is that fair? Oh wait, Marines do that too.....

Anyways, Terran need whatever lab creates two of something at once permanently removed from that game. I think that'll solve a lot of the problems with Terran basically out-massing both Zerg and Protoss. Luckily for Protoss, they have the Colossi, but Zerg have nothing. Ultralisks are pointless, useless, and terrible. Zerg can combat bioballs with banelings pretty well, but they have nothing but air units to combat Colossi. Not really a problem unless there's Terran around, because they can mass produce Vikings and shut down Zerg's air. Sure, Mutalisks own Vikings, but there's no way Zerg can match Terran's production.

Clearly, Blizzard's testing is lacking. I don't think they know how to brainstorm and test edge cases correctly, which, in this game, would basically be critical mass.

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Oh wait, Marines do that too.....

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00n18vZ_ewA]YouTube - TheLittleOne vs Nada - Game 1 - TvT - Blistering Sands - StarCraft 2[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yueRyfCPXso[/ame]

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Ugh Colossi could use a nerf. They hard counter half of the entire game, how is that fair? Oh wait, Marines do that too.....

Please tell me you're kidding. Air units beat the shit out of Colossi hard. Like every other unit, they have a very specific purpose, which is crowd control vs weaker units. Hard counter my ass, when was the last time you saw a Colossus smack down an army of stimmed Marauders? Oh right, that doesn't happen. Not without a lot of colossi anyway, in which case you've probably over committed and will pay for it dearly.

The Colossus is just fine, it's only really a pain in the ass with the Thermal Lance and even then there's a lot of waste to deal with them. Just because you're having a hard time with something doesn't necessarily mean it's OP. I actually happen to think Blizzard went a little overboard with the VR nerfs as well as Reapers, but oh well. Both needed nerfing, but Rays could have kept their damage up (at least the bonus damage vs armor) a few points higher, and it would have been far more sensible to simply increase the Gas cost of Nitro Packs. Rays are still very much in play, but the factory requirement pretty much killed Reapers since they're largely only good for early hit & run raids, and possibly light harassing in teams. I mean with the factory requirement you may as well just either 1/1/1, 3M or Mech since the time and gas wasted to put up that factory will likely wreck whatever chances for an early strike you had in mind (depending on the map).

[Ufgt]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Seriously, the only unit left that needs a nerf is Mauraders.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Please tell me you're kidding. Air units beat the shit out of Colossi hard. Like every other unit, they have a very specific purpose, which is crowd control vs weaker units. Hard counter my ass, when was the last time you saw a Colossus smack down an army of stimmed Marauders? Oh right, that doesn't happen. Not without a lot of colossi anyway, in which case you've probably over committed and will pay for it dearly.

The Colossus is just fine, it's only really a pain in the ass with the Thermal Lance and even then there's a lot of waste to deal with them. Just because you're having a hard time with something doesn't necessarily mean it's OP. I actually happen to think Blizzard went a little overboard with the VR nerfs as well as Reapers, but oh well. Both needed nerfing, but Rays could have kept their damage up (at least the bonus damage vs armor) a few points higher, and it would have been far more sensible to simply increase the Gas cost of Nitro Packs. Rays are still very much in play, but the factory requirement pretty much killed Reapers since they're largely only good for early hit & run raids, and possibly light harassing in teams. I mean with the factory requirement you may as well just either 1/1/1, 3M or Mech since the time and gas wasted to put up that factory will likely wreck whatever chances for an early strike you had in mind (depending on the map).

Let me clear something up, I don't play 1v1. While Colossi might not be the greatest threat in 1v1, they're huge in team games, espesially if it's a Protoss/Zerg team. Protoss can safely go Colossi while Zerg use a mix of Mutalisks and Corruptors, or all Mutalisks. They'll have every angle covered, and you'll lose most of your ground forces within a few seconds, long before you can even begin dealing with the Colossi with anti-air. It's such a bane for Zerg because Colossi melt every single ground unit they have, and Zergling pretty much explode into ash the moment they think of Colossi. This forces Zerg into air, where Protoss still pretty much have the advantage with Phoenix.

I agree about the Reapers, I think they went a little too far. Factory? Blah. I still want to complain about Void Rays, but I really can't. People can still mass them pretty easily, but they aren't any more dangerous than critical masses of other units.

Banelings. I know they're currently under fire from Terran, but that's why I love them. One armor upgrade and they last so much longer before premature death. Does either melee attack or ranged attack upgrade their explosive damage?

Also: Aeni, I can't watch videos while at work.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Corrupter > Colossus, 'nuff said.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Corrupter > Colossus, 'nuff said.

Generally, yea, but depending on the circumstances, Colossi could easily do all the damage they need to before the Corruptors reach them. Thermal Lances mean ground armies would walk right into their death before ever knowing what hit them. Worse, yet, if they're set to A-move and they're filing right into the Colossi's attack range. It really only takes a second for shit to hit the fan.

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Ugh Colossi could use a nerf. They hard counter half of the entire game, how is that fair? Oh wait, Marines do that too.....

Anyways, Terran need whatever lab creates two of something at once permanently removed from that game. I think that'll solve a lot of the problems with Terran basically out-massing both Zerg and Protoss. Luckily for Protoss, they have the Colossi, but Zerg have nothing. Ultralisks are pointless, useless, and terrible. Zerg can combat bioballs with banelings pretty well, but they have nothing but air units to combat Colossi. Not really a problem unless there's Terran around, because they can mass produce Vikings and shut down Zerg's air. Sure, Mutalisks own Vikings, but there's no way Zerg can match Terran's production.

Clearly, Blizzard's testing is lacking. I don't think they know how to brainstorm and test edge cases correctly, which, in this game, would basically be critical mass.

I disagree with almost everything said in this post, but I really only play 1v1. However, the game is balanced first and foremost around 1v1. As a that's where the e-sports scene is, that's what the game will be balanced around.


Btw, yes, melee attack upgrades increase Baneling damage (and they get a lot out of the upgrades). Also worth of note: banelings always deal their explosion damage. It's not like brood war's spider mines or scourge. If a marine gets the kill shot on a baneling right before it detonates on said marine, that marine is still in range for damage. For this reason, you can simply right-click baneling squads into or around your opponent's light armies and wait for them to eventually get shot and die.

In 1v1...
-Colossi are far from overpowered, though they're convenient and require much less micro than psi storm.
-Zerg has the highest ability to mass quickly and create whole new armies from scratch. Reactors can't keep up with this, nor can warpgates (though at least warpgated units arrive sooner).
-Ultralisks are fucking amazing. But they're definitely hard to field. Technically, they're no harder to get than colossi (same cost, pretty much same amount of tech). But Zerg builds don't seem to lend themselves to an organic progression towards ultras.
-I would say Blizzard has done a phenomenal job with testing and patching balance and ignoring whiners who don't know what they're talking about. But then 1.1.2 hit.


The hell? post lost my edit.

Yes, ground melee attacks up Baneling damage (which is awesome).
It's also worth noting that banelings deal their full damage whenever they die. This means if a marine kills a baneling right before the bling hits the marine, the resulting death will still hurt the marine pretty bad.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

, However, the game is balanced first and foremost around 1v1. As a that's where the e-sports scene is, that's what the game will be balanced around.

It's this kind of attitude that will ruin this game. It certainly ruined World of Warcraft for a long time. It definitely appears to be the prevailing attitude at Blizzard, because they'd been working for so long at balancing the entire game around a single aspect, Arenas. Stranger still, is that they wanted each team-size mode just as balanced, which is what you're saying they wont do with the exact same mode stylings of Starcraft 2.

They could probably address only one on one match-ups if they properly dealt with critical mass situations. I know that's probably not even on their radar, since one-on-one matches tend not to reach armies of critical mass. Such a fix would have no noticiable effect on one-on-one, and, hopefully, a more beneficial one for every other matchup.

[Ufgt]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I'm pretty sure it's impossible to balance every game mode unless the units are different in each mode, which would be really retarded.

Besides, there's very few (if any) competitive 3v3 or 4v4 teams because those modes are total clownshoes. Fun, but clownshoes.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I'm pretty sure it's impossible to balance every game mode unless the units are different in each mode, which would be really retarded.

Besides, there's very few (if any) competitive 3v3 or 4v4 teams because those modes are total clownshoes. Fun, but clownshoes.

Admittedly, yes. There's not enough people playing them, so they pull from all leagues. Still, that doesn't mean the entire game can't be balanced.

Also, I'm stealing clownshoes. Good day, sir.

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

They could probably address only one on one match-ups if they properly dealt with critical mass situations.

This is a rather astute observation, but it normally offsets itself. Take Marines.

Marines clump closer than in brood war. In the same area you used to fit 12, you can now easily fit 30 (!) and they still deal the same damage as they used to. In fact, I believe their rate of fire is now slightly higher.

To offset this, melee units possess much better pathing (it's way harder to kite a zealot with 2 marines than it was in brood war). Moreover, every increased clump means aoe attacks are better than ever.

So in theory, it balances itself out. The idea being: if you can scout your opponent and keep up to date on them, you can either see them massing void rays or (if they're hiding their tech) you should at least be seeing a tiny army because of the resources being funneled away elsewhere. So your opponent attempts to thin out your mass (sniping single colossi as early and frequently as possible, for example) or simply abuses the fact that they know what single basket (unit decision) you're putting all your eggs in.

However, I do acknowledge that in 3v3 and 4v4, that sort of thing gets very hard to keep tabs on. I really do like 2v2, despite my limited exposure. But I cannot bring myself to take 3v3 and 4v4 seriously. And that's likely because of how much balance breaks.

You want to see the biggest abusers of critical mass? Play a macro-oriented Zerg. What's that? You just blew up his army? By the time your counterattack reaches his base, 20 eggs worth of army just hatched!