So... Starcraft 2?

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

MMM is fine. More stuff for me to psi storm/feedback. Void Rays are just as bad as banshees. They both have retarded DPS and are relatively easy to keep alive. I really don't think VRs are banshees are overpowered, but they sure are obnoxious. If they nerf VRs, they'd better nerf banshees (I'd increase their build time slightly and that's about it).

In that same article, Browder pasted win rate statistics. TvZ is actually Zerg-favored in most leagues, including Diamond. He says they feel the win rates don't reflect the fun-factor. I can understand that, but I can also understand that Zerg players still aren't spreading creep and researching burrow. Both of which should be integral vs Terran.

VRs and Banshees aren't on the same level. Banshees can only attack ground and can cloak, which isn't that great when Protoss bases are filled with detectors, Terran can scan whenever/wherever/whatever, and all Zerg has to do is morph an Overlord into an Overseer, which the Banshee could do nothing about. Void Rays, on the hand, are completely counterable until they begin charging up, at which point nothing can counter them and nothing can stop them until they're done destroying your base and are no longer charged. Definitely not on the same level.

Burrow is useless against Terran, and creep isn't that great either. Scan makes both of those pretty pointless. Once they find the first tumor they can kill it and put an end to the whole thing, and if you burrow it's just a quick scan before you're dead. Sure, creep helps out a whole lot for movement speed, but it's still not that great, although I spread it anyways.

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

VRs and Banshees aren't on the same level. Banshees can only attack ground and can cloak, which isn't that great when Protoss bases are filled with detectors, Terran can scan whenever/wherever/whatever, and all Zerg has to do is morph an Overlord into an Overseer, which the Banshee could do nothing about. Void Rays, on the hand, are completely counterable until they begin charging up, at which point nothing can counter them and nothing can stop them until they're done destroying your base and are no longer charged. Definitely not on the same level.

Burrow is useless against Terran, and creep isn't that great either. Scan makes both of those pretty pointless. Once they find the first tumor they can kill it and put an end to the whole thing, and if you burrow it's just a quick scan before you're dead. Sure, creep helps out a whole lot for movement speed, but it's still not that great, although I spread it anyways.

I feel like we did this a couple pages back. Saying "you can detect cloak so you can counter it" is great and all, if you actually have it. Every photon cannon a toss player builds is 1 less gateway made to produce units. It's easy to say "you can't go colossi vs zerg because ultralisks own them", but it's not true because Zerg doesn't start the game with that tech. Likewise, Terran doesn't automatically have missile turrets everywhere, toss doesn't automatically have photon cannons everywhere, and observers cannot keep up with banshees (and I've tried many a time).

Plus, you can EMP void ray's shields and kill them quick. That doesn't keep them from being as devastating as banshees.

I usually go 3 gate > robo > observer for openings. By the time that observer gets to their base, they already have 2 starports with tech labs, starting on banshees. By this time, I likely have an expansion. This means, in addition to that observer who's on the wrong side of the map, I need 2 more observers and a bunch of stalkers -- enough to protect both of my mineral lines. This causes a lot of paranoia, which in turn hurts my ability to attack since I know the backstab is coming. I can't dedicate 8-12 stalkers to protection forever, so I have to build my Forge (which, admittedly, I need to start remembering to build earlier) and then build 4-5 cannons. All told, 650-800 minerals worth of investment, and they don't warp in instantly. I still need to be chrono boosting those observers and sending them to the right spots with stalkers holding down the fort 'til the cannons warp in. That's a LOT of infrastructure management, don't you think?

--

Regardless, Void Rays just got nerfed pretty hard. Medivacs got some too, so it seems they agreed with you, Dak. I'm glad they didn't really do much to marine/marauder though. They just hurt the mobility of medivacs slightly.

Also, if your opponent is scanning to kill your creep tumors, that's a win for Zerg.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Oh snap SC2 does have cheats programmed well shit lol.

Honestly, I never even thought to look. It certainly explains why you can use the chat feature in single player.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I feel like we did this a couple pages back. Saying "you can detect cloak so you can counter it" is great and all, if you actually have it. Every photon cannon a toss player builds is 1 less gateway made to produce units. It's easy to say "you can't go colossi vs zerg because ultralisks own them", but it's not true because Zerg doesn't start the game with that tech. Likewise, Terran doesn't automatically have missile turrets everywhere, toss doesn't automatically have photon cannons everywhere, and observers cannot keep up with banshees (and I've tried many a time).

Plus, you can EMP void ray's shields and kill them quick. That doesn't keep them from being as devastating as banshees.

I usually go 3 gate > robo > observer for openings. By the time that observer gets to their base, they already have 2 starports with tech labs, starting on banshees. By this time, I likely have an expansion. This means, in addition to that observer who's on the wrong side of the map, I need 2 more observers and a bunch of stalkers -- enough to protect both of my mineral lines. This causes a lot of paranoia, which in turn hurts my ability to attack since I know the backstab is coming. I can't dedicate 8-12 stalkers to protection forever, so I have to build my Forge (which, admittedly, I need to start remembering to build earlier) and then build 4-5 cannons. All told, 650-800 minerals worth of investment, and they don't warp in instantly. I still need to be chrono boosting those observers and sending them to the right spots with stalkers holding down the fort 'til the cannons warp in. That's a LOT of infrastructure management, don't you think?

--

Regardless, Void Rays just got nerfed pretty hard. Medivacs got some too, so it seems they agreed with you, Dak. I'm glad they didn't really do much to marine/marauder though. They just hurt the mobility of medivacs slightly.

Also, if your opponent is scanning to kill your creep tumors, that's a win for Zerg.

I've yet to see how much of an impact the Void Ray nerf has had. If I remember correctly, they have three charges, so making the first one stronger, the second one weaker, and leave the third alone, doesn't do much. If they do only have two charges, then I don't really see this as being a fix at all. Now they're a whole lot more dangerous before they've completely charged, at which point they're still pretty dangerous.

I think the nerf to Medivac speed is only to slow down mineral line drops. They used to be faster than the bioballs they were meant to heal, so now they'll probably have an easier time keeping pace.


How many races actually have attainable counters for Marines? Zerg is supposed to have Ultralisks, but they're the last unit they could possibly tech to, have horrible pathing and AI, and are basically giant bullet sponges. Can't forget Banelings, which are awesome, if they work. They usually don't work. Protoss have Collossi, and supposedly High Templar, both of which aren't terribly difficult to tech to. Collossi are pretty decent at melting bioballs, but grabbing chunks of the ball and splitting them off, stimming the groups not under fire, will wreck Collossi. High Templar are useless. Psi Storm sucks. What does Terran have? They used to have Siege Tanks, but, for some reason, they nerfed their damage against light units. They're pretty useless against bioballs, now.

So nobody really has an awesome counter for Marines. Collossi can leap to a great start with Thermal Lances and high ground, melting a few swaths of them before they can react. Banelings are also pretty great melting swaths of Marines, but they're slow even with the speed upgrade. Stim the Marines and the Banelings will never catch up. Burrow for the advantage, but that's a one time thing. Again, these are good counters, but what's preventing them from being great is that they're more costly to maintain than Marines. Collossi, obviously, require a lot of resources to tech to and aren't cheap. Banelings are much cheaper, but they're suicide units so you're pretty much gambling with every one you make. On the other hand, saturate your crystals and one vespene geyser and you're well on your way to fielding an immense army of Marines, capable of tearing apart pretty much every unit in the game. That's not really fair.

Not to even mention the amount of micro require to counter Marines...

[Ufgt]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Psi Storm sucks? Are you serious? High Templars wreck bioballs. Feedback the medvacs and storm the marines. So simple. It's not like the protoss player won't have Zealots stopping the ball from advancing so the HTs can get in position. And once out of juice, archons wreck bioballs too.

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I've yet to see how much of an impact the Void Ray nerf has had. If I remember correctly, they have three charges, so making the first one stronger, the second one weaker, and leave the third alone, doesn't do much. If they do only have two charges, then I don't really see this as being a fix at all. Now they're a whole lot more dangerous before they've completely charged, at which point they're still pretty dangerous.

They only have 2 charges (mid-beta change). The level 1 damage went from 5 to 6, dude. That's not "a whole lot more dangerous". Their level 2 damage went from 25 to your command center they're sniping to 16. And the speed upgrade does very little now (about 60% of its prior strength). If you can't see what these changes will do for fighting single, harassing VRs as well as mass VRs, I think you should run some math.

Bioballs

A quick note: Ultralisks are a horrible choice against mostly-marine compositions. Their vs non-armored damage is pretty weak -- I believe it's 15/hit to un-armored and 35/hit to armored. That means with +1 attack, it takes just as many hits to kill a Combat Shields marine as it does a siege tank.

As for the other stuff, I'll just say protoss can handle them fine. The problem with toss is that, when I'm teching to my HTs and such, I have to move carefully and spend a lot of time/resources protecting every expansion because the opponent likely has banshees everywhere.

Before the Zealot nerf, I did find out that 4-gating and waiting for Warpgate tech to attack always hit before banshees could come online. >.> So I guess I could go back to that to win. Too bad 4-gating is cheap.

Final note: yes, HTs are fantastic against bioballs. Things to remember: an aggressive P will build pylons near the combat. High Templar get an upgrade to start with 75 energy. Psi Storm costs 75 energy. Put it together: when I decide to engage bioballs, I have reinforcements warping in 1 screen away, psi-storm ready. It's NASTY. I've had people raging at me that HT are OP before leaving the game in an angst-ridden path.

The only problem is surviving until both HT upgrades are online.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

They only have 2 charges (mid-beta change). The level 1 damage went from 5 to 6, dude. That's not "a whole lot more dangerous". Their level 2 damage went from 25 to your command center they're sniping to 16. And the speed upgrade does very little now (about 60% of its prior strength). If you can't see what these changes will do for fighting single, harassing VRs as well as mass VRs, I think you should run some math.



A quick note: Ultralisks are a horrible choice against mostly-marine compositions. Their vs non-armored damage is pretty weak -- I believe it's 15/hit to un-armored and 35/hit to armored. That means with +1 attack, it takes just as many hits to kill a Combat Shields marine as it does a siege tank.

As for the other stuff, I'll just say protoss can handle them fine. The problem with toss is that, when I'm teching to my HTs and such, I have to move carefully and spend a lot of time/resources protecting every expansion because the opponent likely has banshees everywhere.

Before the Zealot nerf, I did find out that 4-gating and waiting for Warpgate tech to attack always hit before banshees could come online. >.> So I guess I could go back to that to win. Too bad 4-gating is cheap.

Final note: yes, HTs are fantastic against bioballs. Things to remember: an aggressive P will build pylons near the combat. High Templar get an upgrade to start with 75 energy. Psi Storm costs 75 energy. Put it together: when I decide to engage bioballs, I have reinforcements warping in 1 screen away, psi-storm ready. It's NASTY. I've had people raging at me that HT are OP before leaving the game in an angst-ridden path.

The only problem is surviving until both HT upgrades are online.

I've never had trouble with HTs. I suppose part of the problem is that they spray and run away, which causes my a-move units to follow and leave the storm's area of effect. Other than that, the storm never does much damage to my units, and I can easily chase the HTs down and kill them.

I thought VRs were gaining a little more damage on their first charge than that, but I guess that's still an improvement. They weren't exactly slouches at their first charge, and their third/second/last was just too powerful.

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I've never had trouble with HTs. I suppose part of the problem is that they spray and run away, which causes my a-move units to follow and leave the storm's area of effect. Other than that, the storm never does much damage to my units, and I can easily chase the HTs down and kill them.

Maybe you have better control over your units than Platinum/Diamond level players.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt2cGNq_Wvg]YouTube - Merz vs NightEnd - Game 3 - Part 1/2 - StarCraft 2 Craft Cup Finals[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohTqi9p-lJc]YouTube - Merz vs NightEnd - Game 3 - Part 2/2 - StarCraft 2 Craft Cup Finals[/ame]

---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------

I wonder why protoss players forget about the lil sentires ... you know, the units that put bioballs into a corner where HTs can do their job? Sentries make a difference between a 2 colossi, 6 stalker push succeeding or failing against a mass ball of speedlings.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

A quick note: Ultralisks are a horrible choice against mostly-marine compositions. Their vs non-armored damage is pretty weak -- I believe it's 15/hit to un-armored and 35/hit to armored. That means with +1 attack, it takes just as many hits to kill a Combat Shields marine as it does a siege tank.

.... except for the fact that Ultras have so much freaking armor the marines may as well be spitting on it. Marauders are another story entirely, but to say Ultras are bad vs marines... well, those marines better be on the high ground.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

.... except for the fact that Ultras have so much freaking armor the marines may as well be spitting on it. Marauders are another story entirely, but to say Ultras are bad vs marines... well, those marines better be on the high ground.

Marines should haven't that much trouble with Ultras, but mostly because of their pathing. With a few upgrades, Marines should stand a decent change, but with a ramp, the Ultras might as well lay down and die.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Marine max dmg is 9 right with +3?

Ultras, IIRX, have 7-9 armor with chitinous plating and +3 ground armor so... yeah, you're gonna need a lot of marines.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Marine max dmg is 9 right with +3?

Ultras, IIRX, have 7-9 armor with chitinous plating and +3 ground armor so... yeah, you're gonna need a lot of marines.

Yea, that's the plan. If you're Terran, just spam marines out the wazoo.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Still doesn't seem like the brightest thing the world to do, especially if you got banelings coming your way or even worse brood lords.

Marauders are a much better option. 3M is pretty mean against Zerg. Not as much as it was before the patch, but still way, way worse for Z to deal with than P.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Last night I won a game simply with marines. I probably had about twelve of them, and I walked into a zerg expansion and killed a queen and four mutalisks before the fifth finished off my last marine. My partner was rolling banelings into some of the other bases. All of a sudden we're watching the timers count down on the entire enemy team. Seems like they were playing on a network and pulled the plug for the entire network.

Anyways, the moral of the story is that I could field marines faster than he could field mutalisks. My upgrades are cheaper than his, and require much less investment to get them started. Granted, completely upgraded marines don't really stand much of a chance against other completely upgraded units, but the point is to get in fast before they can upgrade. It shouldn't be too difficult. Mix in a few marauders for their slow, and shazam.

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Marine max dmg is 9 right with +3?

Ultras, IIRX, have 7-9 armor with chitinous plating and +3 ground armor so... yeah, you're gonna need a lot of marines.

Yeah, the "idea" is that an ultralisk can ignore marine fire and take out the marauders, tanking all the fire while your other units kill the marines (fungal growth, plz). Marine damage is 6-9, Ultralisk armor is actually 1, +2 for unique upgrade, +1-3 from carapace upgrades. A grand total of 6 armor. What's nice about this is that a meching Terran player probably won't have super high infantry attack upgrades. But obviously, if you see tons of 9 damage marines, expect your ultralisks to take a beating (3 damage/shot, whereas 6 armor vs 6 damage = .5 damage/shot).

Zealots with Charge function a lot like well-placed force fields, as far as psi storm goes. Sure, they get hit, but they zip in and begin wrapping around bioballs. Every side zealots are on is one less side Terran can run to in order to escape psi storm. And pulling back exposes the medivacs more often than not.

Dimaga (zerg player) has a really interesting play I like and may have already talked about: normal ling into mutalisk play, which tends to force high marine count. Then when Terran pushes out with their anti-ling/muta composition, they run into BANELINGS EVERYWHERE which are sooo good against marines.