So... Starcraft 2?

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I wouldn't say Void rays are overpowered as they are, now. But they're certainly so good that they keep gravitating towards being the backbone of protoss play. I hate them.

Dak and counters: yes, it's true that if you have a mutalisk, I need something which can hit it. Does that make Sentries a counter to mutalisks? I certainly hope not. What you keep missing is that you cannot always have the perfect unit for the situation at hand. I can try to have a good mix of units to come up against your good mix of units, but sometimes your marauders end up shooting my marines instead of my tanks.

Imagine this scenario: you're T and I'm P. You have a mass of marines to fight off my early void rays while I built a bunch of gateways. Now I come in with Zealots. Your marines are still good against them. They're marines, they're cool like that. But I have warpgates. My whole next wave of units is High Templars. Your marine balls are very NOT good against psionic storm. You're not going to GG just because you're lacking tanks in siege mode to pick them off or banshees to snipe them, are you? You're going to Stim forward and take the losses.

I don't see why you keep wanting to argue this point. It's not making either of us any smarter. The counter challenges say "hey, sometimes you have to lead with a unit you didn't want to because that's what you still had when his next wave of units comes along." Just because you scouted that he has a bunch of barracks with tech labs doesn't mean it's nothing but marauders that are popping out of there. Learn to cope with the marines.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I wouldn't say Void rays are overpowered as they are, now. But they're certainly so good that they keep gravitating towards being the backbone of protoss play. I hate them.

Dak and counters: yes, it's true that if you have a mutalisk, I need something which can hit it. Does that make Sentries a counter to mutalisks? I certainly hope not. What you keep missing is that you cannot always have the perfect unit for the situation at hand. I can try to have a good mix of units to come up against your good mix of units, but sometimes your marauders end up shooting my marines instead of my tanks.

Imagine this scenario: you're T and I'm P. You have a mass of marines to fight off my early void rays while I built a bunch of gateways. Now I come in with Zealots. Your marines are still good against them. They're marines, they're cool like that. But I have warpgates. My whole next wave of units is High Templars. Your marine balls are very NOT good against psionic storm. You're not going to GG just because you're lacking tanks in siege mode to pick them off or banshees to snipe them, are you? You're going to Stim forward and take the losses.

I don't see why you keep wanting to argue this point. It's not making either of us any smarter. The counter challenges say "hey, sometimes you have to lead with a unit you didn't want to because that's what you still had when his next wave of units comes along." Just because you scouted that he has a bunch of barracks with tech labs doesn't mean it's nothing but marauders that are popping out of there. Learn to cope with the marines.

Sorry, I'm not even sure why I'm arguing.

All I'm saying is that, while you do make with what you have, countering is all about adapting. If I'm playing Terran I'll always push out Marines and Marauders, because they're great for both offense and defense. Eventually, I will use them. I wont let them be because I've got something else I can use that works better. They'll definitely maneuver in some way or another and find the enemy's base or expansions.

Also, pushing your defense into a group of enemies they don't necessarily counter still isn't the best idea. If you're playing 1v1, hopefully you have an expansion that you can continue to build your army with. If you're playing on team, you're better off losing your base and keeping your force, with the goal of combining forces with your teammate(s). This goes double for air units, since they can be hid very easily in the corners and sides of the map. Even if you have only four Mutalisks to your name, you can harass while your friend acts as a diversion. This can very easily make or break the game for you.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I don't see why you keep wanting to argue this point. It's not making either of us any smarter. The counter challenges say "hey, sometimes you have to lead with a unit you didn't want to because that's what you still had when his next wave of units comes along." Just because you scouted that he has a bunch of barracks with tech labs doesn't mean it's nothing but marauders that are popping out of there. Learn to cope with the marines.

Or if you're really quick on the draw, you can stim and high-tail it the hell out of there :D

[Karinya]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

While this is true Marines and Marauder counter pretty well everything, its not overly fair for a tech 1 unit to be honest

So, basically, Blizz eliminated lurkers and defilers and introduced a low-tech counter to ultras because terran ground wasn't overpowered enough in BW and they wanted to make it even more of an I WIN button?

Sounds like graphics win, gameplay fail to me.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

So, basically, Blizz eliminated lurkers and defilers and introduced a low-tech counter to ultras because terran ground wasn't overpowered enough in BW and they wanted to make it even more of an I WIN button?

Sounds like graphics win, gameplay fail to me.

Yea, the balanced isn't exactly even. Although, as I was saying earlier, Marines aren't the hot shit everybody believes them to be. They'll be the first units on the field with a ranged attack, so you've got to be wary of that, but there are plenty of counters later in the game. Colossi absolutely rape them.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I've seen Marauders die pretty damned easily to speedlings and especially banelings...

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Banelings can counter just about any ground unit, granted the player can micro their burrow properly.

[jenova_9]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

it's so kawaii calling them banelings and zerglings and marinelines and stuff. ^.^

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

it's so kawaii calling them banelings and zerglings and marinelines and stuff. ^.^

Get out.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Get out.

Now

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Z players continue to bitch about how overpowered Terran is, but their win rates are fine, and the few pros who happen to choose Z are doing fantastically.

So, basically, Blizz eliminated lurkers and defilers and introduced a low-tech counter to ultras because terran ground wasn't overpowered enough in BW and they wanted to make it even more of an I WIN button?

Sounds like graphics win, gameplay fail to me.

People say stuff like that, but they neglect the other facts: Terran doesn't have tier 1 medics anymore (or medics that can heal each other). Fungal Growth breaks apart and stalls pushes, nydus networks are insane (I just lost to a game where I guy was floating an ovie juuuuust outside my base and built a worm when I wasn't looking. It took him around 30 seconds to demolish half my base with nothing but hydras). And Z players are still too stupid to know they need to spread creep. As well as no burrow and no queens to heal roaches/mutas/ultras.

We also like to avoid talking about mechanical changes to the game. In addition to sieged siege tanks being actually less effective vs ultras than in BW, their splash damage getting changed mid-beta to be centered on the target's center instead of the front edge means ultras physically large size reduces the amount of splash damage other units take every time an ultra is targeted instead of a hydra in a pack of other hydras. The concept of Dark Swarm was to shorten the length that your units are running into position while taking fire. Mechanically, this is identical to increased movement speed (creep), but is a passive benefit to reward active creeping. Of course, this means no daisy-chained dark swarm clouds which force an "I win, give me this land" scenario.

Finally, Ultras are a fantastic choice against marauders. Sure, Marauders deal bonus damage to them. But they're armored and they tend to clump. Enter Ultras nuts bonus vs armored, fantastic attack speed, and splash damage. Oh yeah! and the fact that they're immune to concussion grenades (marauder slow).

Sounds like gameplay win, Zerg fail to me.

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Void Rays are good in just two scenarios:

1. A couple of them to bring down a BC.
2. En Masse for pillage, looting and raping bases, particularly those of Terran structures.

The reason being is that the longer they are in battle against a target, the more stronger their attacks become. They're woefully ineffective against lighter units and units with tiny health pools. VR can be deadly if your opponent has no air defense and if you want to open up a backdoor play and destroy his/her nexus/hatchery/command center as part of a larger strike force. I would never tech and build VRs just for shits and giggles if I'm (or my team) isn't winning the match because they're both a waste of time and resources and can be countered in numerous ways.

---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------

People say stuff like that, but they neglect the other facts: Terran doesn't have tier 1 medics anymore (or medics that can heal each other). Fungal Growth breaks apart and stalls pushes, nydus networks are insane (I just lost to a game where I guy was floating an ovie juuuuust outside my base and built a worm when I wasn't looking. It took him around 30 seconds to demolish half my base with nothing but hydras). And Z players are still too stupid to know they need to spread creep. As well as no burrow and no queens to heal roaches/mutas/ultras.

Most players don't know what they're doing in this game and most veterans have such bad memories from the first series that they avoid Zergs like Ebola. All the points you have made are spot on. I have a couple of friends who've successfully played zergs to the fullest and have just destroyed both terrans and protoss players in Diamond league play during beta (the results weren't even close) For some reason, they got bored to death and then successfully downgraded all the way to bronze level and were having more fun trying to be the first team to go from the top to the bottom and stay dead, dead last. :p

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I'm getting pretty good. Still need to work on my early game unit production. I need a decent build order that I can rely on to build a unit defense/offense or to branch off of.

So far, it seems like every good protoss strat moves from zealots to stalkers, then sticks with stalkers while teching to something else. Stalkers are pretty good all-around, and can be used very strategically.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

11 rax ftw

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

11 rax ftw

In one random 3v3 match I decided to put out a 16 gate push and drop proxy pylons in expansions. It was lulz to say the least (and frikkin' laggy for the most part ... never gonna do that ever again)