So... Starcraft 2?

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

What fucking Starcraft were YOU playing? Yeah marines were really freaking effective against Carriers, Guardians & BC's... Terran dominated the skies in Brood War, but SC2 seems to be more balanced across the board. As for Stalkers vs Helions... well, I guess it comes down to terrain? If you can blink up to high ground they can't touch you.

A higher ranked game than you, I'm sorry to say. Terran air dominance in BW was... ehh. If you say so. Valkyries are only used in very small numbers and generally considered weak unless you can glitch them out of their attack animation. Terran air is wayyyy better in SC2.

About BCs vs big groups: the funny thing about having a .225 attack interval (i.e. SHOOTING REALLY FUCKING FAST) is that you never overkill. As soon as one target dies, your attacks move over to the next. This is ideal for taking out large groups of weaker stuff.

As for unit counters: keep trying. Stalkers do great against hellions even w/out blink. They both have 6 range. But Hellions have a crap rate of fire (almost as big as siege tanks in siege mode) to go with mediocre damage vs Stalkers, while Stalkers deal decent damage very quickly. Carriers really are horrid against Thors, but it's the best option you have.

Remember not to get toooo hung up on the absolute perfect counter. Thors own mutas. But that doesn't mean it's smart to walk your thor into 6 mutas alone. Even if Vikings are the best response you have to your opponent having 4 colossi on the field doesn't mean you can instantly have a squad of vikings if you're going heavily bio ball. The point of the counter exercises is to know which of the units you already have built are the most efficient to send against your opponent. In a real battle, it'll take very-fast micro to make these decisions, but they'll help a lot. If it means scattering your army and having a few marauders take the colossus fire while stimming your army and moving in, so be it.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

As for unit counters: keep trying. Stalkers do great against hellions even w/out blink. They both have 6 range. But Hellions have a crap rate of fire (almost as big as siege tanks in siege mode) to go with mediocre damage vs Stalkers, while Stalkers deal decent damage very quickly. Carriers really are horrid against Thors, but it's the best option you have.

Remember not to get toooo hung up on the absolute perfect counter. Thors own mutas. But that doesn't mean it's smart to walk your thor into 6 mutas alone. Even if Vikings are the best response you have to your opponent having 4 colossi on the field doesn't mean you can instantly have a squad of vikings if you're going heavily bio ball. The point of the counter exercises is to know which of the units you already have built are the most efficient to send against your opponent. In a real battle, it'll take very-fast micro to make these decisions, but they'll help a lot. If it means scattering your army and having a few marauders take the colossus fire while stimming your army and moving in, so be it.

Try the Protoss counter challenge, it's obvious that Stalkers are not counters to Hellions.

And countering is specifically building things to counter what your enemy is building. That's why scouting is so important; so you can match your opponents force with a force that can counter it.

[Ufgt]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I've never lost a unit in the Stalker v Hellion protoss challenge.

Actually, I only lose units in that challenge when it comes to anything with Zealots lol.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

A higher ranked game than you, I'm sorry to say. Terran air dominance in BW was... ehh. If you say so. Valkyries are only used in very small numbers and generally considered weak unless you can glitch them out of their attack animation. Terran air is wayyyy better in SC2.

uh huh, yeah right. BC's will shred any other air unit in DPS, and the Valkyrie fire 8 salvos dealing full damage per rocket + full splash damage in a large radius. In a straight up air superiority battle, Terrans win. But this is about SC2, and I agree that Terran Air does seem even better in 2.


was watching a video of TLO vs another guy where he used his Vikings to amazing effect (except in 1 little instance where he stupidly did not land them on the cliff) harassing the enemy supply lines. Does the THOR still have that bombardment ability that was on the old website where it functions like a siege tank but with more guns? >.>

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Try the Protoss counter challenge, it's obvious that Stalkers are not counters to Hellions.

And countering is specifically building things to counter what your enemy is building. That's why scouting is so important; so you can match your opponents force with a force that can counter it.

I have the gold medal on all 9 challenges. The only problem I had was thors vs carriers. That said, I don't remember using stalkers vs hellions. I remember using colossi behind force fields.

As for counters, you make it sound like paper/rock/scissors. If I have roaches, your zealots will die IF I micro them away from you. If I let them sit, zealots technically aren't the best solution by-cost but it's still damn close. If a zerg player throws up a spire and I'm protoss, I cannot instantly have a squad of phoenixes to eat the mutalisks that can and will pop out in droves. Phoenixes may be the perfect anti-muta, but damnit, I'll use my sentries/stalkers. I was probably going Templar tech anyway. Psi storm isn't as effective vs mutas as it was in BW but I'll try. And I'll make archons as they run out of energy -- despite them being a lot weaker than in BW, as well. This game isn't won by having the absolute perfect counter to every situation. You try your best to have as many of the right units as you can. The rest is scrapping.

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Are you even playing?

This game is pretty ridiculous. The challenges are plainly RETARDED. Stalkers are NOT counters to Hellions. Nothing ground is going to be a counter for Hellions, ESPECIALLY Stalkers, since their blink ability causes them to clump together allowing the Hellion's attacks to be more effective. Carriers are NOT counters to Thors, they're not really counters to anything. Void Rays would be the preferred counter if you're playing Protoss.

I tried using the zealots in the challenge, their AI was horrible. Terrible. They, literally, ran around the Marauders doing NOTHING but running. So useless. So fucking useless.

You blink the "red" colored units to the rear There was a neat match in which TLO beat his opponent on pure micromanaging, down to blinking away near dead units.

---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:09 PM ----------

I have the gold medal on all 9 challenges. The only problem I had was thors vs carriers. That said, I don't remember using stalkers vs hellions. I remember using colossi behind force fields.

As for counters, you make it sound like paper/rock/scissors. If I have roaches, your zealots will die IF I micro them away from you. If I let them sit, zealots technically aren't the best solution by-cost but it's still damn close. If a zerg player throws up a spire and I'm protoss, I cannot instantly have a squad of phoenixes to eat the mutalisks that can and will pop out in droves. Phoenixes may be the perfect anti-muta, but damnit, I'll use my sentries/stalkers. I was probably going Templar tech anyway. Psi storm isn't as effective vs mutas as it was in BW but I'll try. And I'll make archons as they run out of energy -- despite them being a lot weaker than in BW, as well. This game isn't won by having the absolute perfect counter to every situation. You try your best to have as many of the right units as you can. The rest is scrapping.

You're correct. Basically having a good mix of covering your weaknesses and exploiting your opponent's weakness is the way to go. I don't go for hard counters. Instead, I try to keep a mobile defense that can be converted into a decent counteroffense on the fly. Having a maze of pylon as an obstacle to my mineral lines is also something I've learn to adapt to and helps to "buy" some time for recovery. I think while being the first to draw blood will usually swing a momentum to that side, it's how hard you can counterattack which usually ends the game in favor of the other side. I've been in some 2v3 matches (with someone leaving right at the beginning) and macro harder than some of my zerg oppponents in order to churn out units faster than the other base can swallow them.

Edit:

My composition normally includes a healthy ratio of 1:1 stalkers and zealots and then a few of each of sentries, immortals and colossi. Depending on what I'm dealing with, once the initial "jab" is thrown at me and I successfully survive that, I'll use what I have and then build upon what more I need. In the case of multiplayer, though, I tend to macro hard, going for a fast zealot first (it's not defense for my own base) and then rapidly converting into a macro game for the next 10 minutes. Once I have 6 gateways, 2 factories, 2 expos up, I dot the map with pylons in crucial chokepoints and tend to either rapidly respond to an advancement or be able to get a massive counterattack in just seconds and hit at expos to dry their resources up. Usually the worst choices any player can make is waiting for too long to get an expansion. For every minute you wait to expand beyond a comfortable point in the game, the further you fall behind your opponent two-fold.

[Taskmage]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

That was epic but it actually wasn't TLO, if we're thinking of the same game.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pETcAm82vXU"]YouTube- ‪HD Starcraft 2 IdrA v DrunkBobby p1/1‬‎[/nomedia]

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

That was epic but it actually wasn't TLO, if we're thinking of the same game.

YouTube- ‪HD Starcraft 2 IdrA v DrunkBobby p1/1‬‎

Ooh .. yeah, I'm thinking of another match, but DrunkBobby was the one I meant to refer to. There was some other match in which TLO used blinking very well but DrunkBobby was epic. Thanks for the link.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHT6cjr-bJ8&playnext=1&videos=1I2IpaaZVr8"]YouTube- ‪Shortest Game Ever?‬‎[/nomedia]

SCV rush lmao

[Taskmage]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Not as awesome as the [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5NgS7UPsjc"]YouTube- ‪The 1000th Commentary (Epic Dual Planetary Fortress Rush with montage)‬‎[/nomedia] (skip to 4:11)

---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 AM ----------

christ, what is the forum doing to youtube urls now, eh?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

dunno, its been that way for a bit now, some sites will embed, such as Gametrailers, but it doesn't seem that Youtube does anymore.

Also, are there any RTS that are less "swarmy" than Starcraft? From what I've been reading, I've seen some people say Warcraft III strove for a better balance. I did once play a turn-based version of Age of Empires on the DS and rather enjoyed it, is Civilization similar to that in an RTS context?

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I have the gold medal on all 9 challenges. The only problem I had was thors vs carriers. That said, I don't remember using stalkers vs hellions. I remember using colossi behind force fields.

As for counters, you make it sound like paper/rock/scissors. If I have roaches, your zealots will die IF I micro them away from you. If I let them sit, zealots technically aren't the best solution by-cost but it's still damn close. If a zerg player throws up a spire and I'm protoss, I cannot instantly have a squad of phoenixes to eat the mutalisks that can and will pop out in droves. Phoenixes may be the perfect anti-muta, but damnit, I'll use my sentries/stalkers. I was probably going Templar tech anyway. Psi storm isn't as effective vs mutas as it was in BW but I'll try. And I'll make archons as they run out of energy -- despite them being a lot weaker than in BW, as well. This game isn't won by having the absolute perfect counter to every situation. You try your best to have as many of the right units as you can. The rest is scrapping.

You can't just have the counter, you have to scout and make the counter. Besides, that doesn't even occur until after the rush phase.

I had a match last night where it was my partner and I against two zerg players; my partner and I being zerg and terran respectively. Of course my first thought is to wall, but the ramp is too wide to cover it in time, so I start building from both sides and my friend sticks zerglings in the middle. Those zerglings made for an effective wall, as my marines were able to fire past them without taking any damage.

We also faced another team of both zerg, who 12 pooled and managed to pump out two dozen speedlings each. By that time I was beginning to make roaches while my friend tech'd to air. That was an interesting replay to watch.

[MrMageo]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

You can't just have the counter, you have to scout and make the counter. Besides, that doesn't even occur until after the rush phase.

While this is true Marines and Marauder counter pretty well everything, its not overly fair for a tech 1 unit to be honest

Marine Counters
Mostly all air units (save broodlords)
Immortals


Marauder Counters
Ultralisk
Any toss gateway unit
Most terran mech (save siege tank in siege mode)
Roaches

Counters to MMM
Colosus
Templar
Banelings

So if you are terran an MMM ball can counter 90% of what your opponent can throw at you. Not only that but they are cheap tech 1 units by comparison. Leaving money to add in a few tanks to pretty well counter any combination of troops. Save colosi, which can be countered with several low cost fast produced vikings.

Kind of imbalanced to the terran side counter wise. But they have always been the defensive minded race. Also they are the only non-mass race, a zerg or toss can replace their armies much faster than a terran so I guess it is kind of balanced.

---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 AM ----------

Also, are there any RTS that are less "swarmy" than Starcraft? From what I've been reading, I've seen some people say Warcraft III strove for a better balance. I did once play a turn-based version of Age of Empires on the DS and rather enjoyed it, is Civilization similar to that in an RTS context?

Civilization is weird, as it is an RTS, but it is also an ecconomic, and diplomatic simulator. Where you have to keep your economy going well to continue to make units, you need to provide food or your cities will revolt. You can make treaties and alliances, or you can simply take on the whole world. It is turn based, limited by the amount of units you have. once all your units have acted you are then done your turn.

If you liked Ag of Empires, Empire Earth is a good game, now it is not turn based but it is quite interesting, and can be a long drawn out game.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Command & Conquer can go either way in terms of Swarmy really, especially when you get some of the really nasty super units out.


But in general swarming is just a natural aspect of RTS. You have opposing armies for crying out loud. It's pretty much unavoidable 90% of the time. However not all RTS are micro-fests like Star Craft.

Civilization is turn based and thus not an RTS. As far as console gaming goes, Halo Wars is still by far and above the best RTS ever, and even ranks way up there with PC games IMO and not just because it's Halo. It's actually a very underrated and well made game. Makes me sad that Ensemble went under and just a while back Robot passed it on to freaking Halo Waypoint... who have done nothing with it. I doubt there will ever be a title update 5 or new DLC.

EDIT: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/10/gl...rize-money-th/

holy crap...

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Why are Void Rays the end-all-be-all unit? Nobody has been able to counter mine, yet, even if they've had credible intel and tech'd specifically to counter. I've used Void Rays to decimate armies of Vikings, Marines, Hydralisks, and Mutalisks. I think only the Hydras were close to defeating me. The charging rays don't dissipate between targets, and there's maybe only half a second spent between targets where the ray isn't firing. Micro'ing these units might be good against larger targets, but against smaller units they're better off picking their own targets.