So... Starcraft 2?

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

lmfao now I KNOW you people are full of shit. Your micro must be really bad.


YouTube- HD Starcraft 2 Machine v LzGaMeR p1/1

Don't go J9 on us. Watching videos of game isn't the same as playing it.

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Put up, or shut up. I've seen Reapers in the hands of high/top level players do horrific damage. Yeah they're not invincible, but ONE Stalker? I don't think so.

Like I said, check out HD Starcraft's youtube channel. LzGamer & Painuser are crazy good @ Terran, and they love Reapers.

Starcraft 2 Forums

Post there and tell them how amazing Reapers are. Go ahead, I'll wait.

(Or I'll save you the time: Lzgamer's Reaper play is the only thing standing between reaper respect and everyone thinking they're a waste of space. I hope the metagame gets beyond that because they're one of my favorite units, but they're ridiculously limited in scope.)

---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 PM ----------

Ok, I just skimmed through your link and my MASSIVE HYPERBOLE alarm started sounding.

MrMageo explicitly said you need zergling speed upgrade to fight off reapers. What did you do? Post a video where Z went Spawning pool > Hatchery w/out gas. You know what that means? HE HAS SLOW ZERGLINGS => Deadlings. You're only looking at the data that supports your argument.

I really shouldn't be bashing reapers this much. I keep thinking in my heart "once players get some time to experiment, people will realize they're a viable choice all through the game!" But right now, their only use is in catching your opponent with his pants down. For example, zerg going rather FE with no gas. That's suicide against Terran and he deserved to lose.

[Solymir]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

They are not three full games. In our opinion they are three packages containing 1/3 of a game.

Repeat of something I said before. If they had released 1 game with 3 campaigns, and then 2 follow up expansions with 3 more campaigns each it would be worth full price times three. As it is you pay full price for each individual campaigns.

Here's an example. The original SC had a campaign for each race. Brood War Expansion pack had a campaign for each race, and was cheaper than the original.

To take this one step further using a different game as a reference. Heroes of Might and Magic IV had a full game with a campaign for 6 individual races. They released two expansions that added 6 more individual campaigns each and were less expensive than the original HOMM IV.

These are the memories we have for doing games like this, and this is not the format they are following for SC2.

[MrMageo]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Mal have you played the game yet? They reduced reaper costs, reduced reaper upgrade costs, to try and make the unit worth using. Still, it is rarely used outside of early cheese. Hell you could accomplish a similar feat using 3-4 marines. The reason reapers work is cause you jump the opponents units, once he has ranged (stalker,marine,queen) or an early upgradeable unit (zergling,zealot) or any for of static defense, (canon/spine crawler) it is a wasted unit. That is a terrans rush, on par with a ling or canon rush (also a lot rush).

Anyhow, i see many people play if you would like to practice ever so you dont butcher your ladder hit me up. Kurtmooreca@yahoo.ca.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Even with the Speed, as long as you're micro is very good and you can keep off the creep you can pick them off np. The only way you're going to bring them down with just lings is if you can surround them with enough units.

That was just one of many games where Lz abuses the Reapers. I'm not trying to make them out to be some super God unit because they're not, but they are easily one of the best games for early eco harassing. Their usefulness IMO depends greatly on the map you're on too; Metalopolis I think it's called, has a bunch of ledges for Reapers to hop up and down from which is just a total nightmare for melee units like lings and zealots.

[MrMageo]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

It is situational and flukey, just like a 6 pool rush. Just like a canon rush. It is an all in essentially. Ya you can get lucky and ya there are good maps for it (lost temple and metolopolis are a couple). But most of the time you will get scouted and most of the time you will not have a chance to deal eco damage. Sure you can pick off a couple, but in the end the majority of the time the amount of minerals and GAS you dump in to pick of several workers or units, could better be spent on your own workers or units.

There are times when you can make it work good, there are times when you can't. It is as strong as any other rush, and most of the time a good player will counter it.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

The investment in Reapers will definitely set you back, and, most importantly, you HAVE to know when to abandon it and change tactics. That's extremely important at all times, during every game. If you have intel on an enemy that suggests you're producing disadvantaged units you need to switch things up.

I'm having a lot of trouble with my game. It seems like the only people I do well against quit prematurely, regardless of whether or not they can rebuild. My friend has demonstrated to me several times how easily Zerg can rebuild. He's won several games 2v1 after I've been taken out as Zerg. I recently did the same in some random 3v3. My teammates were decent, and we managed to take out two of the opposing team, but the third went Void Rays and none of us had anti-air. I was able to rebuild, and on the third rebuild I pumped out hydras and took him down.

Random pick-ups are terrible.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

The investment in Reapers will definitely set you back, and, most importantly, you HAVE to know when to abandon it and change tactics. That's extremely important at all times, during every game. If you have intel on an enemy that suggests you're producing disadvantaged units you need to switch things up.

I don't see why you're pointing that out as it applies to any and every unit/strategy. All I'm saying is don't hate on Reapers, they are awesome for early harassment and can be a game-winner at times. Though I'll admit, given the choice, I'd rather have Medics back and even firebats; Zerglings are only a viable threat vs Terran again because Blizzard took out bats. Yeah you can make Helions now but they're higher tech and I'm fairly sure cost more.

Played some rounds of SC1 against the AI today and I'd forgotten just how insanely frustrating it is when the enemy spams Marines Bats & Medics, God damn.


I HATE Random Pick ups... my True Skill in Halo Wars took a dive from 37 to 33 because of constantly being paired up with retards in 3 v 3 unarranged. As such I only ever do 2v2 and 3v3 teams when friends are online, I'm done trying to tough it out with idiots who can't even counter properly.


As for rebuilding, it helps that Zerg are pretty cheap... Are hatcheries still 300 minerals in SC2? The Queen's spawn larvae ability is freaking awesome for ramping up production.

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

As outlined above, the opportunity cost of going reapers is higher than any other early tier unit. You lose out on 2 marines and half of an upgrade's worth of vespene just for a single Reaper. They're definitely still cool, but they really are risky. And, while it's true they're a rush strat, you can modify it to a timing where it's still useful to send 1 reaper over and punish an opponent for not being prepared (especially if you scout a really really fast expand) and NOT destroy your own economy by doing so (unlike 6-pooling where you just leave the game if it fails) as well as having the tech lab ready to pump the ever-loved marauders.

Which brings me back to: don't use strats that rely on reapers unless you really know what you're doing.

About zerg -- I think it's worth keeping in mind this little Brood War era comparison:
-If Terran has 6 factories and 4 barracks, you can produce 6 tanks and 4 marauders at a time.
That's 10 total production facilities.
-If Zerg has 10 hatcheries, you can produce 10-30 roaches at a time. or mutalisks. Or double that number of zerglings.
10 Production facilities which can produce whatever unit you want makes for an army that can constantly change its composition. Add this to the simultaneous unit production (larvae) and you have a frightening ability to surprise and overwhelm. What's changed in SC2? Spawn larvae makes each of those hatcheries way better. If you stockpile larva, it's possible to go from complete army decimation to 200/200 in one round of production.

And this is why I have so many problems listening to any crybabies who think Z is underpowered.

(yes, their hatcheries are still 300/pop)

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Yeah Queens are freaking insane in SC2 wow...


I just found out that Overlords NO LONGER DETECT CLOAKING BY DEFAULT! HOLY SHIT! That is a hell of a nerf to Zerg, as according to the FAQ I'm reading (I don't know what all the changes from SC1 are yet) they are apparently expensive and need to be individually upgraded....


Christ on a bun, that actually makes Nukes and DT viable vs Zerg... and it's about time. I always fucking hated how Cloaked units were basically useless against Zerg in SC1. Looks like they can't build Spore towers anymore either (I think) for AA + Detection... damn.

Dropping nukes was always my favorite thing to do in SC1. Attack the front door with a diversionary force and use Micro to keep the opponent chasing my forces while the Ghost sneaks in and obliterates the workers. Shit, I really want SC2 now!

Honestly I was semi pissed about losing Medics & Bats, but since Zerg can't auto-detect off the bat anymore, that seems like a fair trade. What have the Protos lost with regards to their early game, other than Cannons being weaker now? (Or so I've read) Also holy shit @ Chrono Boost damn... that's cheap man, get an early gate and Chrono Boost fast Zealots... yeesh.

EDIT: Just read this in the FAQ I'm reading, and now I'm truly scared of the Zerg...

Because of the power and flexibility of nydus worms, OL drops are
less common in SC2 than SC1. Unlike with OLs, units do not die if
the Nydus is destroyed, and if an attack is failing then you can
always retreat your units into the Nydus if it is still alive.

* Nydus can hold an infinite number of units. You can even rally
units from your hatches into your Nydus.

On top of being able to set them up anywhere you have a LoS... that's just crazy. The potential for decoys and just fucking with your opponent's mind in general in SC2 is crazy...

[MrMageo]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Christ on a bun, that actually makes Nukes and DT viable vs Zerg... and it's about time. I always fucking hated how Cloaked units were basically useless against Zerg in SC1. Looks like they can't build Spore towers anymore either (I think) for AA + Detection... damn.

They are called Spore Crawlers and can detect. They are available after build an evo chamber. (Spore and Spine Crawlers Colonies are also mobile now, and can be moved anywhere there is creep.)

As far as zerg anti detection is concerned unfortunately by the time you can field DT or Ghost (or banshee) Zerg can most likely have overseers (overlord upgrade) however zerg players must now choose to do this because overseers do not have the same abilities as an overlord.

Honestly I was semi pissed about losing Medics & Bats, but since Zerg can't auto-detect off the bat anymore, that seems like a fair trade. What have the Protos lost with regards to their early game, other than Cannons being weaker now? (Or so I've read) Also holy shit @ Chrono Boost damn... that's cheap man, get an early gate and Chrono Boost fast Zealots... yeesh.

I was also pissed. But then I found the cheap and expendable hellion. As well as the huge mobility medivacs provide.

Hellion are like a vulture + firebat mix that have speed and the flame thrower with upgrade can be devestating. You can get 2-3 an just burn into a worker line and 1 shot the entire line with the upgrade.

Medivacs are medic drop ships. Excellent for taking small strike forces (or big ones) right to the enemy base. Allows for a perma stim on all units pretty near. This is also awesome for Ghost drops. Find a dark corner drop acouple ghosts and nuke some tech and production buildings. If you are lucky you can melt workers but most of the time armies and workers get moved.

Cool thing with medivacs are the ability to heal team mates bio units. (any zerg and some toss stuff). This is really useful to mix in with a partners muta or broodlord forces.

Quote:
Because of the power and flexibility of nydus worms, OL drops are
less common in SC2 than SC1. Unlike with OLs, units do not die if
the Nydus is destroyed, and if an attack is failing then you can
always retreat your units into the Nydus if it is still alive.

* Nydus can hold an infinite number of units. You can even rally
units from your hatches into your Nydus.
On top of being able to set them up anywhere you have a LoS... that's just crazy. The potential for decoys and just fucking with your opponent's mind in general in SC2 is crazy...

They can be very very powerful. If allowed to pop. They are however very weak and spit out about 2 units a second. So if they do go up then you have to hope they last long enough to move your army. Should both ends get destroyed your army is lost.

The OL drop still can be favorable because it lets you also drop creep. Which gives Zerg units an advantage. Not only can you move faster but you can also build some spine crawlers and secure a foothold right in the enemy base.

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Just wanted to check in here. We might start a clan with the next patch and I'll see if any of you are interested in joining. Anyway, wanted to make several points and remarks.

1. As for no LAN support, Blizzard has already said that it may get introduced in a major patch in the future, but for now, they want to see how well BNET will serve their online needs and if there was LAN support from the get go, hardly anyone would be on BNET. This will most likely make the online portion of the game lackluster and create all sorts of PR/marketing issues for them. Just give them some time and see where things go. For the most part, you don't need LAN and not sure why? In this day and age, with WiFi and tethering to unlimited data plan smart phones, who requires LAN anyway? There are LAN centers all over the place if social gaming is what you're looking for.

2. There is a mode in single player called the challenge mode. I advise new players to check it out. If you pop the help menu in these scenarios, you learn invaluable information regarding what units work better against others or are weak against. This can help you devise strategies and improve your APM (actions per minute) which is crucial for multiplayer matches. The new coop mode against AI is also fun and with a few friends and a casual afternoon (there's an in-game vent as well) you can have a great time.

3. HDStarcraft and HuskyStarcraft both have Youtube channels that you should check out. Day 9's link I've already listed in this thread (first page) The only way you can get better at the game is to practice and also watch what other players are doing. This game is unique because no matter how good you are, you can never master the game, because there's always room for improvements, no matter how marginal that increment may be.

4. There's a secret mission you can unlock in single player but you MUST NOT have started the last mission (Char) or have completed it. If either is applicable, either load a previously saved point before Char or start a new campaign. Where you need to be is in Media Blitz (mission on Korhal) I won't give away spoilers but you can replay this on casual if you want to just get it done. Google up the specific strats if you need more information.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Haven't checked Husky yet but I was already subscribed to HDSC.

[MrMageo]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

just hit 1st in my division go me.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/...0#current-rank

apparently as i was posting someone else one. So now I am number 2 again boourns.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Blizzard deleting 'inappropriate' StarCraft 2 user maps- Destructoid

Sad to report, but no more penis maps. Blizzard will have words with you for having them.

No word on vagina maps yet.

I wish I could actually get into Starcraft, but it seems a bit too hectic for me.