So... Starcraft 2?

[DakAttack]

Is anybody playing? I could use some discussion on tactics. I've got a 2-man team with a friend of mine, and we're ranked 39th in the silver league, but he's not very good at giving me advice.

As far as I can tell there's three phases to any given match: rush, harass, and the finale. You've got to consider a rush depending on your opponents' races. This typically means walling, but depending on the opponent you would use different units. You've also got to consider how your opponent might harass you, because it's more possible now than in the original. Then, you've got the finale and you need to plan what your end goal is for unit production.

I'm still pretty bad at expanding while tech'ing, but I've had a few good matches tonight. I really suffer from building too much of a good thing. If something works I tend to stick with it, which is a problem because opponents tend to adapt.

[jenova_9]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

4v4 is more fun! More cooperation and excitement mew!

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

4v4 is more fun! More cooperation and excitement mew!

Cooperation required or actual cooperation? Playing with a friend means we can actually cooperate.

[jenova_9]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

well make friends with 2 more that communicate and you'll have a good fun army made up of 4 generals instead of 2. You may be able to cover each other's weaknesses better.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Eh, I'm not even going near SC2 until they announce some kind of collection with all 3 bundled at a discount.

[Taskmage]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

My friends and I are still pretty much noobs so I can't really advise you much, other than to say that HDStarcraft and day9tv channels on youtube have tutorials and entertaining commentaries on pro matches that you might be able to learn some stuff from. Day[9] tends to have some pretty insightful stuff to say about strategy but he also tends to ramble on about random crap a lot.

[Ufgt]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Honestly, scouting is so important. That's why I think terran have a SICK advantage. The can comsat into Reapers on problem if they see a wall. And reapers are so good in the early game, if your opp isn't ready, you can crush their economy with the quickness.

I play Toss and I usually go 2 gateways into Zealot/Stalker mix and go from there. Gotta always be ready to adapt your strategy based on your opponents units. Mixing up units is really important too.

But yah, scout scout scout. Without it, you'll get wrecked.

[MrMageo]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Always be ready to change gear. I play terran, an typically go with a 2 rax opening, Marines and Marauders are a solid opening force that can harass and defend well early game. It allows me the flexibility when entering the mid game to quickly change to mech (build multiple factories), go with air (banshees if i notice a lack of air support/observer units) or go into the ball (multiple barracks, and MMM).

As Ufgt says Scouting is important, this allows you to not get boggled down into techs that may become useless when your opponent hard counters your plan. As terran after I build my initial Supply depot that SCV is used to scout early, has he rushed an expansion (if so I could rush a MM team and probably win) has he opened with fast gateways, or early spawn pool. Never stop scouting, as terran i get the advantage with comsat, so i dont need to expend units to see stuff I need to see.

Be on the watch for hidden structures, particularly toss and terran, what you see at your opponents main might not be everything up his sleeve. Don't know how many times I have been hit with suprise void rays because my opponent has built a hidden starport at a proxy. Make use of watch towers for as long as possible, they give you a great advantage of map knowledge, an early expendable unit to each tower, is nearly as good as scouting early.

If playing against terran be sure to put a couple marines/stalkers/zergings in your mineral line, most terran will use a few early reapers to quickly hit the economy, and/or scout. Having just a few units to deter them, will provide protection to your workers. If against toss, make sure you watch your bases immediate outside area, for proxy pylons, also watch for some cheese, as lots of toss will try and make a cannon or gateway in the fog of war in your base, or they will warp in an assimilator to your gas. Zerg lack any real early crap tactics like that, save for being the first to really be able to send a game altering force early (the 6 pool rush). However, the extractor trick, could have them off to an economic advantage (in the early part of the game) allowing them to get to 12/10 control.

Know unit counters yourself, if you see a zealot, stalker force, hard counter the stalkers with marauders and back them up with a support force of marines. This type of mixed unit force will test your micro skills, try and use your marines to wall off zealot access to your Rauders while they take down the stalkers, with the stalkers gone your ball has an easy time going for it. When you see collosus or ultralisk, send air units, you will only need a half dozen as those units can not attack air, leaving you unscathed.

If you play terran and your partner as another race, remember that your medivacs can heal some of their units as well. This makes for a very nice combo with zerg, in a MMM+M attack (marine/marauder/medivac/mutalisk) Add in a couple more medivacs and have them follow your friends force and keep numbers above your opponents, longer.

Little things like this have been my focus, I have always been a good macro player, but my micro managment, and the finer points of the game (through the beta) were lacking, and kept me bouncing between silver and bronze league because I just couldn't make that jump.

Best advice, try a lot of different things. Never commit yourself to one tactic, scout early and often, know the hard counters units posses, and unit relationships, and practice, practice,practice.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Starting strategy is important, too. As Terran, I find I make more money if I have 11 SCVs before I build the first supply depot, then continue with barracks. At that point you should be able to fill the queue with Marines while building another supply depot. From there, build another barracks or a factory, then expand. If you can pick an out-of-the-way place to expand it shouldn't need much defense, or, if the next best place to expand if right outside your base, it can be apart of the defense.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Scouting is vital to any RTS. I don't know about all the changes they've made since the beta but I do know some stuff about the units (I've never really been partial to any faction I love playing all 3 but I suppose I lean on Terran most)


I LOVE how they've changed Terran however this time. The bigger focus on artillery is very welcome (Hurray for airborn artillery omg)

Basic Tips from SC1 (as SC2 hasn't really changed; New units and new look, but it's still SC)


- Scout early and often. A single SCV will suffice at the beginning.

- Wall off any open choke points (with Depots if you're Terran), especially as you can now lower them into the ground to let your own guys pass.

- Money! MONEY MONEY MONEY!!! You need to expand and out-resource your opponent. This is, IMO, the single biggest deciding factor in every SC/SC2 game and always will be. Early on do nothing but make SCV/Drone/Probes so you can rack up the big bucks. Don't get concerned over using up your beginning minerals too soon; you want that!

Likewise, try to raid your opponents workers first. Reapers are amazing for this. Just fly up and over any obstacles, ignore whatever defenses they have set up and let down those D-charges or w/e they're called into their workers. With any luck you'll get most or all of them. Even if you lose ever single unit in the attack, if you can disrupt his economy you've basically won.

With Protoss you'd have to use either Zealots or the warp dudes (lol sorry I forget their name but it's the ones that can blink around the map) and for Zerg the Banelings are probably best. Zerglings are nice and quick but Banelings will just smash through and cause horrific splash damage. At the very least you can probably use a small squad just as an initial breaching force then have the main force charge in.

I don't know how much time and resources it takes for early air, as that would be the preferred method of attack because of the ease of Hit & Run tactics which is why I focused on ground methods. I'm pretty sure you can get Reapers fairly early though and while they aren't true air units, they can damn well get the job done.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I think zerglings are still the preferred method of harassment for Zerg. Banelings are decent, too, but they're extremely vulnerable. Mutalisks are also excellent for harassment, as are Banshees.

Zealots wouldn't be that great for harassment, due to them being extremely slow and vulnerable to ranged attacked. Stalkers, the ones that blink, seem a little buggy to me. Sometimes I'll try to blink up a cliff or beyond an obstacles and they'll all simply line up at the cliff or obstacle. It's pretty dumb. I've seen somebody blink up a cliff and past the supply depots I lined the cliff with, though, so something strange is going on.

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

1. Scout

Workers usually after the first pylon/supply depot, overseer for zergs. Terrans have added advantage of flying buildings for scouting purposes (more health points) while Toss can use stealth units. Zergs have their overseers/overlords and lings for cheap and fast scouting. You must always have stealth detection units if you're not going for a fastkill along with lots of scouting.

2. Depending on what race and your goal, there are more than one type of build to follow.

-Quick reaper rush for early victory on maps with cliffs and windy terrains. Medivac/Marauder/Marine (MMM) build for standard ground < 10 min matches. Thor/Seige drop harassment also works nicely when least expected. Ravens with missile defense is a must against ranged units.

-2 Gate outside your opponents base for a fast kill. Mass Void Rays (used to work nicely, not sure how much they nerfed it since beta) Utilize sentries in ground assault to your advantage. 4-5 Gates standard ground build. Dark Templar builds under 5 minute for first pushout can be devastating.

Didn't play much zerg but usually 2 hatch 15 is standard and 15 pool if you think you're gonna get rushed. Check out Day9 for more strats: day9tv on blip.tv

Should work well for 1v1, 2v2. 3v3 and 4v4 is all about en masse or cheese because protracted "balanced" fights are rare if at least one out of 6/8 players decide to do something "unique" to win.

---------- Post added at 06:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

Zealots wouldn't be that great for harassment, due to them being extremely slow and vulnerable to ranged attacked. Stalkers, the ones that blink, seem a little buggy to me. Sometimes I'll try to blink up a cliff or beyond an obstacles and they'll all simply line up at the cliff or obstacle. It's pretty dumb. I've seen somebody blink up a cliff and past the supply depots I lined the cliff with, though, so something strange is going on.

It was shift queue that made them blink across gaps in beta but the word on the street is that it was patched. Now, not sure if it was patched for *certain* maps only or if there's still bugs with it. The first indication was that it wasn't a bug but then they said it was not intended.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I thought Zealots were made a lot faster in SC2, particularly with that charge ability?

And of course banelings are vulnerable, they're a kamikaze unit! The damage they can do when sprung on an unsuspecting player though... It's almost worth it just hide some near a potential expansion and then WHAM nasty surprise lol.

And Stalkers, that's the unit thanks. How far up the tech ladder are they? The key thing is to get in early before major defenses are established. However, even late game one of my favorite tactics was to use a Ghost to drop a nuke onto an enemies' workers... it's sooooo cruel lol. Problem is Blizzard to go from one extreme to the other; in SC1 the little red dot was way too tiny to notice in time unless you're already looking there. But in SC2, you get this gigant fucking pattern that says HERE I AM!

And I maintain that drones are best for early game scouting, chiefly to find out just where the enemy is. Overlords are too slow and valuable early on. Use just 1 drone very early to locate their base then later yes overlords are great scouts when upgraded.

Which reminds me, did they finally lower the tech level for the Protoss Observer? It always annoyed the hell out of me that such an amazing scout unit (that isn't good for anything else) was so high tech. It's just stupid! Any smart player would have anti-air detectors around their base anyway to prevent drop-ins so lowering the tech would hardly be game breaking.

You want to see a game-breaking scout unit just fire up Halo Wars...

[Balmung]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Never was into the SC Universe, but the vids really get me wanting to play ><

[Aeni]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I thought Zealots were made a lot faster in SC2, particularly with that charge ability?

Require teching for it and one advanced structure to get it.

And of course banelings are vulnerable, they're a kamikaze unit! The damage they can do when sprung on an unsuspecting player though... It's almost worth it just hide some near a potential expansion and then WHAM nasty surprise lol.

Banelings are highly susceptible to splash damage but do make some good ambushes. However, with a sentry or two, a toss can waste a whole slew of them. Check out TheLittleOne vs NonY:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV8qWkCgUYg"]YouTube- HDH Invitational THIRD PLACE: TheLittleOne v NonY g4 p1/2[/nomedia] (1/2)
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrKEr1gKfa0"]YouTube- HDH Invitational THIRD PLACE: TheLittleOne v NonY g4 p2/2[/nomedia] (2/2)

Overlords are too slow and valuable early on.

1v1/2v2 maps are really small. They are slow, but not THAT slow. Remember, only marines can hit them early game, but you'll only see mass marines if other side is cheesing for a fast win. Most terrans would rather go Reapers or Marauders since they're too good at what they do and when you need them.

Which reminds me, did they finally lower the tech level for the Protoss Observer? It always annoyed the hell out of me that such an amazing scout unit (that isn't good for anything else) was so high tech. It's just stupid! Any smart player would have anti-air detectors around their base anyway to prevent drop-ins so lowering the tech would hardly be game breaking.

Protoss observer can be pushed out relatively quickly (4 min?) but unless you're expecting 2 DTs hitting your base at the 7th minute mark (and you're also Toss) then I wouldn't blow resources for it too early.

Edit: Maybe I should fire up my Livestream and cast matches. Waiting on my friends, though. We all hit up Platinum during beta and did really well, but never did manage to piece together time to test out 3v3/4v4 during second phase.