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  • So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

    ...do you always need to be standing to use it?

    Xbox Kinect Does Not Play Well With Couch Potatoes

    Xbox Kinect Does Not Play Well With Couch Potatoes

    "Near the beginning of my trip out here in Los Angeles for E3, I heard the oddest of rumors: Microsoft's controller-free sensor array, Kinect, would only work if you were standing up. No way, right?

    For the last several days I've been peppering the conversations I've had with game creators at this massive video game showcase with the "sitting question." Can Kinect really not work when you're sitting? Is that the reason why every Kinect developer makes me stand to play their game? Is the future of voice-controlled, gesture-triggered television viewing a future of watching TV while standing up?


    What Microsoft says
    Officially, Microsoft says that the sitting question is unfounded. In a mock Q&A that had appeared on the company's press site but has since been removed, they field this question themselves:

    Q: Are there any games or experiences I can do while sitting on the couch?
    A: Absolutely. The games and experiences are designed to be as fun to watch as they are to play-they're designed to get you off the couch. And when you want to enjoy movies, music, and ESPN on Xbox 360, you can control your entertainment hands free from the comfort of your couch.
    Couch potatoes have nothing to worry about, then, right? They shouldn't fear a future that would have them enjoying ESPN and Froza Motorsport on their own two feet?

    No. There is some cause for concern.


    What Game Creators Say
    One developer with whom I spoke and who is familiar with how Microsoft is briefing studios making games for Kinect said the company has specifically advised developers to not make games that would involve the player's sitting down.

    None of the games shown for Kinect at a showcase early in the week were set up for sitting. Kinectimals, a cute take on Nintendogs-style games, but with tiger cubs, was presented as a player-stand-here demo. That's logical, because the game involves walking up to the animal and then jumping or running or doing some other action you want the animal to replicate. The game's lead creator, Frontier Design's David Braben shrugged when I asked him if the game could be played sitting down. He guessed some of it might work, but it didn't sound like he'd tried, possibly because it was irrelevant to his game design.

    You might have expected a seated Kinect experience from the Forza Motorsport team. Those folks are making Kinect driving games and tech demos. They've got a fun highway driving challenge that involves standing in front of the Kinect and steering by holding your hands in front of your body as if you were turning a real steering wheel. The perspective for this game experiment is inside the car, through the eyes of a driver. Rolling your shoulders in front of Kinect turns the game's camera view slightly, letting you look around inside the car. Your lower body is not used — no foot-forward-to-accelerate as was seen in a similar demonstration last year with racing game Burnout. Nevertheless, you have to play this one standing up if you are playing it at E3.

    I asked one of the two members of Forza development studio Turn 10 if I could play their demo sitting down. They said I could not, that it was "optimized for standing."

    The thought that prompted me to start asking the "sitting question" to so many Kinect-connected game developers and executives at E3 was that the Kinect's sensor can't clearly read a human skeleton if a person is seated. Some developers with whom I was theorizing about this guessed that the Kinect would become confused by the bent knees of a seated gamer — that it would need a player to always return to a resting position that has all their joints on one flat plane, which is the case when you are standing, not when you are sitting. No Kinect developer could or would get that specific with me, so I'm left to guess.

    The second Forza demonstration involves walking up to a virtual car and peering at it from various angles. You control this by standing in front of the Kinect and then turning your body, kneeling or side-stepping to push the camera view around the car or to lower it for close inspection. You can open the driver's door of a virtual Ferrari and sit in the driver's seat. But, even in this Forza demo, when you sit in the driver's seat, you are standing in real life. That's the kind of thing that makes you wonder.

    Throughout this week I have watched or tried fitness games, dancing games and several games reminiscent of Wii Sports. All are played standing up, and all have good game design reasons to be played that way. So maybe there is no tech limitation to Kinect regarding your couch? Maybe these games are all stand-up just because that's what is best?


    "Sitting is something we're still calibrating for."
    I'd be worried less about this sitting thing — and I would stop asking the "sitting question" — if I had not been made to watch a movie via Kinect while standing up.

    On Monday evening I participated in a brief demonstration of how Kinect could be used to control the Xbox 360 dashboard. This demonstration had me standing in front of the Kinect and using both hand-waves and voice commands to flip through menus on a TV and load applications such as movie-watching and video chat. There were chairs at this demo, but they were off to the side. I had to stand up.

    The Kinect is superb at recognizing a standing player. It reads the presence of your body, detects 19 or so key joints in your frame and tracks your movement with magical immediacy. I had no more trouble swiping through the Kinect menus than I did steering the car in the Forza demo. Voice commands worked nicely as well, though I lamented that the Kinect couldn't distinguish my commands from anyone else's in the room. What I didn't understand is why I had to stand through all of this.

    I liked telling the Xbox 360 to pause a movie. I liked extending my hand and dragging the movie's progress bar left or right, as if I was using the Star Wars Force to fast forward and rewind. But, I asked the Microsoft people running the demo, could I drag a chair over and try this sitting down?

    No.

    "Sitting is something we're still calibrating for," one of them told me.

    Some time during the demo they showed me a video that simulated Kinect-powered video chat. That was going to be calibrated for sitting, right? And movie watching isn't really going to require me to stand, correct?

    The Microsoft people pointed out that for entertainment applications like these I would be using a lot of voice commands and those would work just fine from a couch. That backs up the simulated Q&A bit from Microsoft about how, "when you want to enjoy movies, music, and ESPN on Xbox 360, you can control your entertainment hands free from the comfort of your couch." They don't say anything about games. And they don't say anything about relying on voice-command rather than body motion detection.

    One of the Microsoft people with whom I was discussing the "sitting question" said the chair stuff is just more complicated. You could be sitting far away, at an angle. True, though I had asked to move a chair in front of the TV before being denied.

    A demo reel Microsoft released of families playing Kinect does does show them using hand gestures to manipulate a movie while sitting, but it is not clear if they are really using the tech. At least it is a sign that Microsoft wants Kinect to work like this.


    Standing And Delivering
    Sitting is an important, if not essential, posture for gaming. You sit to play Halo. You sit to play Fable. You can sit to play most Wii games, even though you risk of failing, flailing or injuring the people next to you. Sitting is good. Microsoft has presented Kinect as a control option relevant to all gamers. And developers have theorized that it could be used to enhance even the most hardcore — shall we call them "sitting-centric"? — games. How Kinect would work with a game we normally play seated is now an open question.

    To those doubting Kinect, I can say that, after a week of playing more of its games, it works great. But after a week of noticing a lack of seated play — after a week of not getting a single developer or Microsoft person to clearly state that Kinect can track your body while you sit — I'm left to wonder if this impressive tech has a problem. Controller-free gaming is an exciting future. Couch-free gaming (and maybe movie-watching and video-chatting)? Say it ain't so.
    "

    ___________________________________________________________

    How about the Move? I watched the press conference on that and during Tiger Woods demo I think I remember them saying something about not being able to just flick your wrist, you need to do a full golf swing. So does this mean that both new additions to motion controllers will make you get up and move (no pun intended)? If so, how will this be received? I know several of my friends thought you had to stand and move for all the Wii games before it came out and were greatly relieved that they could still be a couch potato after it came out. Of course, MS and Sonys additions haven't been released yet so they still have adjusting time but I am interested to see what happens.
    Originally posted by Feba
    But I mean I do not mind a good looking man so long as I do not have to view his penis.
    Originally posted by Taskmage
    God I hate my periods. You think passing a clot through a vagina is bad? Try it with a penis.
    Originally posted by DakAttack
    ...I'm shitting dicks out of my eyeballs in excitement for the next bestgreating game of all time ever.

  • #2
    Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

    Wii Have A Problem...

    tenfold
    signatures are for pussies mew mew mew, here's mine

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    • #3
      Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

      They've already shown off people sitting down while playing the Move so it's not a concern with Sony. With the Kinect, the camera is tracking your entire body, as your body is reflecting the light back to MS's cam to relay movement. So if you're not in the right position, it won't see as much light in the camera.

      With the Move, the controller is the light source the camera is tracking so it's easier to pick up the signal. While the move can also track full body motion (wasn't the eyetoy always able to do that?), it's not needed for most of the games. Outside of a few random party games or some such, most Move games work by following the Move controller only. When the move was announced, they showed one of the devs, sitting in a chair, using it to play Socom 4. He wasn't even holding it like a gun, his arms were down at his sides, a controller in each hand, slightly moving them to move them around on screen as well.
      "I have a forebrain, my ability to abstract thoughts allow for all kinds of things" - Red Mage 8-Bit theater

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

        Originally posted by Ziero View Post
        He wasn't even holding it like a gun, his arms were down at his sides, a controller in each hand, slightly moving them to move them around on screen as well.
        and Sony said that the move was nothing like the Wiimote.... heh
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Kain (FFIV): I am aware of my actions, but can do nothing about them.

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        • #5
          Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

          Originally posted by Kailea View Post
          and Sony said that the move was nothing like the Wiimote.... heh
          At its heart, the Move controller itself might as well be a Wiimote. The primary difference is that the Move doesn't use an IR (infrared) beam to a sensor, it instead uses the PS Eye to get dead reckoning of position, while the tilt/gyros in the controller provide information on orientation.

          In practice, it means that pointing with PS Move is a LOT more accurate than with the Wiimote (which, even with Wii Motion Plus, is still pretty flaky and unsteady), and the software doesn't have to do nearly as much guess-work about how you're moving around either. Wii Motion Plus does a pretty good job of figuring out what you're doing, but you can still make it confused, and it requires frequent calibrations. I haven't heard or seen any complaints of this nature about Move, so that's at least one major design improvement beyond accuracy (and having more buttons available).

          As for Kinect, I think the problem Microsoft's tech has is that it doesn't know how to deal with occlusion. It can't see things "behind" other things if they're completely hidden, so if you put your hands beyond your back, it can't tell what your fingers are doing. And when you're sitting down, it probably has trouble figuring out what your legs are doing since it can't know for sure what angle your knees are bent at. Not an impossible problem to crack from a programmatic standpoint, but certainly a concern.


          Icemage

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          • #6
            Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

            Only problem with Move is while the tech is different and a mild improvement, but in presentation Sony proved they had not better ideas for software than what presently existed. And really, they had to pretend really hard they were doing something new, often by repeating little terms and giving the controllers names we're never going to address them as.

            The spellcasting game - Sorcery, I think it was - does look interesting in concept, but everything Sony Cambridge rolled out was a fucking joke. No one wants the Eyetoy shit again, so they can just stop. No one wanted Eyepet, either. People do not want to see themselves on-screen as they play.

            I do think Move will pan out in the long run. I mean, I can totally see myself using Move for something like Killzone or SOCOM. I just don't think its the leap forward Sony's making it out to be.

            Kinect, however, is a disaster. I would delay Kinect until they can find a nice middle-ground between what they want to do and employing a physical remote-style controller into the mix for greater accuracy. I think Nintendo went with IR because they sort of realized a camera would add expense to the package, so they went with IR, which remains accurate enough and won't rely on light sources. Then they added accelerometers for the things they knew would put the willmote's IR all crazy-like.

            MS is actually limiting themselves by going camera-only. Like the people trying to push 3DTVs down the world's throat, they're not thinking about how people live or what their limitations might be. Nintendo and Sony clearly considered this element because where they live, there's not always a ton of living room space.

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            • #7
              Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

              Originally posted by Ziero View Post
              With the Kinect, the camera is tracking your entire body, as your body is reflecting the light back to MS's cam to relay movement.
              I think that is the other way around. The tracker creates movements and what not based on what does not get reflected back at it.

              The Kinect looks like it has potential. I'll keep a eye out for whats to come.

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              • #8
                Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

                Originally posted by Kailea View Post
                and Sony said that the move was nothing like the Wiimote.... heh
                Technically, they really are completely different. The Wiimote has an IR sensor in it to pick up the signals from the IR bar, and then uses accelerometers and gyros to guess where the controller is when the sensor can't see the bar. The Move uses a camera which watches the glowing ball, so unless the ball is intentionally obscured, it will always be able to track it. Then they use gyros and accelerometers to help enhance this accuracy.

                The big difference between the Move and the Wii-mote is if you point the Wii-mote directly up or directly down or any direction besides at the sensors, it's using the gyros and accelerometers only, as it's not able to track the IR bar's signal. But with the Move, no matter what direction you point it, that big glowing ball will always be in the camera's view, maintaining a constant signal to track. On top of that, the camera will also be able to track other body movements as well, effectively allowing even more mo-cap functionality.

                To me, the Move basically combines the best parts of the Wii-mote and the best parts of the Kinect to make, of the three, the most accurate motion control system available. Right now the Move's biggest downside is it's initial price tag, which while not too high all things considered, is still a lot to spend on an optional accessory.

                Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                The spellcasting game - Sorcery, I think it was - does look interesting in concept, but everything Sony Cambridge rolled out was a fucking joke. No one wants the Eyetoy shit again, so they can just stop. No one wanted Eyepet, either. People do not want to see themselves on-screen as they play.
                The Eyepet and party games things are Sony's attempt to weasel into the "casuals" market that Wii currently has a strangle hold on. It's also why those games have a much lower asking price then full blown PS3 games, to help push them into more homes. While us hardcore gamers might not find those things to be worth the purchase, kids and parents would probably love them. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it precisely those kinds of age-ignoring simple family games that made the Wii the current console leader on the market?

                I mean, if that's all the move would be good for I could see why it would be a complaint. But as you yourself pointed out, in addition to those silly party games, Sony is going to shoehorn the Move system into many of it's big name titles, and even update many older games to work with the system as well. Making the move work for 'casual' party and kids games while also allowing it to work in their biggest big name titles is a smart move by them.

                Again, the only actual downside to the move is the price tag. Otherwise Sony has done motion control better then both MS and Nintendo imo.
                "I have a forebrain, my ability to abstract thoughts allow for all kinds of things" - Red Mage 8-Bit theater

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                • #9
                  Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

                  Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                  Only problem with Move is while the tech is different and a mild improvement, but in presentation Sony proved they had not better ideas for software than what presently existed.
                  Its pretty common for the software to evolve once the peripheral has a user base. Developers need some incentive to jump on the bandwagon so many wait until they see how the populous takes to the new tech. So at launch, just like with console launches, the software may be sparse and not the best but over time it gets better as the user base becomes more established. Of course, this means if people don't take to the Move, then developers won't either.

                  Originally posted by Ziero View Post
                  While us hardcore gamers might not find those things to be worth the purchase, kids and parents would probably love them.
                  Yep I'm excited as hell to get Sorcery for my grandson. He watches me play my RPG's (and gives me "advice" that makes me glare at him sometimes lol) and I would love to have one that he can play.
                  Originally posted by Feba
                  But I mean I do not mind a good looking man so long as I do not have to view his penis.
                  Originally posted by Taskmage
                  God I hate my periods. You think passing a clot through a vagina is bad? Try it with a penis.
                  Originally posted by DakAttack
                  ...I'm shitting dicks out of my eyeballs in excitement for the next bestgreating game of all time ever.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

                    Well, normally I could agree on the whole "it takes time thing," but when you see the developer response to 3DS, it doesn't exactly have legs.

                    SE was like "Kingdom Hearts 3? For PS3? Oh sorry, we have the team doing Kingdom Hearts 3DS right now. Maybe someday there will be a KH3."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

                      Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                      No one wanted Eyepet, either. People do not want to see themselves on-screen as they play.
                      This morning, in a Gamestop:

                      Feba's mom: Ooooooooooh! It's so cute! I want it! *absolutely absorbed in the EyePet trailer*
                      Feba, whispering loudly: You do realize that this is a game marketed at 6 year olds, right? They're right there in the trailer.
                      Feba's mom: Yeah, but it's so cuuuute! Awwwwww
                      Feba's mom: *cranes neck around to watch video as we walk out of the store*


                      Sorry BBQ.

                      ---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 PM ----------

                      Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                      SE was like "Kingdom Hearts 3? For PS3? Oh sorry, we have the team doing Kingdom Hearts 3DS right now. Maybe someday there will be a KH3."
                      Er, the KH3 team is working on Fabula Nova Crystalis or whatever that abomination compilation is called. KH3DS is another team.

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                      • #12
                        Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

                        Originally posted by Feba View Post
                        KH3 team is working on Fabula Nova Crystalis or whatever that abomination compilation is called
                        say wha?
                        -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Kain (FFIV): I am aware of my actions, but can do nothing about them.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

                          Originally posted by Feba View Post
                          Er, the KH3 team is working on Fabula Nova Crystalis or whatever that abomination compilation is called.
                          Also known as Final Fantasy XIII Versus. I can hope it doesn't turn out like Dirge of Cerberus, and having Tetsuo Nomura at the head of the project is at least a hopeful sign.


                          Icemage

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                          • #14
                            Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

                            Originally posted by Icemage View Post
                            Also known as Final Fantasy XIII Versus. I can hope it doesn't turn out like Dirge of Cerberus, and having Tetsuo Nomura at the head of the project is at least a hopeful sign.


                            Icemage

                            oh never mind, thats what that thing is? -.- bleh
                            -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Kain (FFIV): I am aware of my actions, but can do nothing about them.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: So one of the nagging questions about Kinect is...

                              Er, the KH3 team is working on Fabula Nova Crystalis or whatever that abomination compilation is called. KH3DS is another team.
                              Even so, they said it was a priority over getting KH3 out, as was getting the FFXIII games out. Additionally, SE splits up teams regularly and migrates people between projects, so I have a feeling the "KH Team" can be split up and expanded.

                              With FF Vs. XIII and KH 3DS a priority over KH3, though, its going to be a while. They had nothing to show of FF Vs. XIII at E3, which isn't very encouraging either.

                              Also, if I'm not mistaken, MindJack was also a Nomura project. The game is his concept, but it doesn't seem he was involved in terms of art or story. He has a lot of responsibilities at SE these days. Its going to slow him down from the projects he'd like to work on. He seems capable of that kind of workload, though, I'll give him that.

                              Here's what was explained about KH3 at E3 from Magic-Box:

                              - Tetsuya Nomura said that Kingdom Hearts 3 is not in development yet, and the newly announced Kingdom Hearts 3D for 3DS is a brand new title but not the third game. If there is a Kingdom Hearts 3 in the future, it will probably appear on a console platform. He also added that the KH team is busy with Final Fantasy Versus XIII, and the Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep team is doing early work on Kingdom Hearts 3D for 3DS.
                              At this rate, though, why not just make it a handheld game, too?

                              They've had four handheld projects now and two console projects. Clearly, this stuff sells on handhelds and they'd probably save loads of money on the project because they can continue to milk the PS2 assets.

                              Plus looking at a more realistic Donald and Goofy would weird me out. the CG ending to KH II was creepy enough.
                              Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 06-20-2010, 02:51 AM.

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