God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

[hexx]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

Hi. I didn't read most of this. I just watched the above trailer and I just want to say:

OH WOW IT'S GOD OF WAR AGAIN.

Oh sure, a new move or 2 added, some moves rearranged or rebalanced. And the visuals made a bit better. But oh shucks! It's exactly like the other 2 God of War games!

Fucking wastes of my time. Ever notice that video game reviewers give points against sequels for being exactly like their earlier installments? So why is it that if a game lets you be a complete asshole and constantly barrage the player with sexual innuendo (or outright nudity), the game gets an auto-10 (or at least high 9)? God of War 2 ranked better than the original, despite being the same game with more stages. It looks like they're going to succeed at the same shit again. And of course, it doesn't matter how many problems a GTA game gets, it's guaranteed "best game of the year" award.

This industry sucks.

You (and others on this thread) bitch and moan about the industry sucking........and yet, I think out of the group only BBQ actually knows what he's talking about and does his part to recognize games that usually dont get the accolades they deserve.

Here's a fun fact, video game making IS A BUSINESS. Game companies are gonna make what sells, even if it's not what all of the "purists" or "hardcore gamers" want. You want this industry to not suck? Go out and support those indie game makers, otherwise things will never change.

It would be stupid of me to ask (this being the age of the internet and all) but name me 5 AWESOME and INNOVATIVE games that didn't get the praise they deserved simply because they came from the left field. Can you do that without googling it?

Yeah, this may be "another God of War" game, but it's obviously doing something right, and obviously you AREN'T seeing as to how they're the ones rolling in the dough. Quit bitchin, and do something about it instead.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

There's a fellow in Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne called Matador.



He's a skeleton dressed up as a bullfighter, big surprise. He's the first of many special bosses in the game and he's there basically to take everything you thought you knew about the game and show you how wrong you are.

All those status buffs and debuffs you could have learned you looked and said, "Those are gay, I want powerful melee attacks." Well, he's going to show you how stupid you are. He's going to impair your evasion/accuracy and raise his own to the point you always miss and he always lands his attacks. He's also going to pound the crap out of you with multi-hit AoAE attacks and wind magic.

And people accuse Atlus of making this boss "senseless trial and error" and "luck-based" when neither case is true. In reality, Matador being the honorable guy he is, he's trying to teach you that the game is about more than exploiting the weaknesses of your enemies, which you've learned early on. But Matador has no exploitable weaknesses, so he's pushing you to learn to fight defensively. You have access to the ability to beat him, you're just going to have to find that method.

And there are about ten other bosses like him in the game, including Dante from DMC, on top of the standard bosses and minibosses. You can opt out of some of the fights, but not Matador.

Zelda does this with every dungeon, its just nicer about it. Its going to give you an instance almost right away where you can use that shiny, new tool you got out of a chest. And if you don't learn to keep on using that tool in that dungeon, the dungeon becomes an impossible task. But you have to tools available to you, just like the Protagonist can find the tools to take on Matador and beat him at his own game.

These two games are, in their own way, teaching you the ropes and making sure you pay attention. And they're being fair about it.

Nice post.

Mind explaining how it's relevant, please?

[Armando]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

but it's obviously doing something right. and obviously you AREN'T seeing as to how they're the ones rolling in the dough.

Not necessarily. Unfortunately how much something sells is not always an indicator of its quality. People can and will fall for the same old thing in a shinier, flashier package, while they ignore many games that are actually good because they're not as flashy.

do something about it instead.

Like?

[DakAttack]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

If doing things right means dumbing things down enough that every idiot and their baby brother can play I'd rather be wrong.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

Nice post.

Mind explaining how it's relevant, please?

The claim going on here is that QTEs "make you pay attention."

I've laced this thread with game examples that show numerous ways a game can make you pay attention without the use of QTE.

The Matador is the guy that's going to punish you for not learning the system, but its like Mr. Miyagi giving Daniel more work he doesn't understand at the time. Daniel thinks Karate is about offense and that's not what karate is about. This little annoying chores he's given are teaching him, though. Karate about self defense and the use of effective attacks to subdue your opponent so he can't hurt you or others..

Matador is going to make you prepare for the next guy that might take your head. He very clearly telegraphs how he's beating you. You still have plenty of room to play the game as you like, but thinking you can just melee your way out and win by outleveling bosses is your first stop to failure in that series.

QTEs don't teach much of anything. they just create the illusion of action or finishing moves

[Ziero]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

Yeah, it's so much better to fight for 20 minutes and then lose because you mistimed one button press. Especially if it was your first time fighting that boss and you didn't even know it was going to HAVE a QTE. That's the kind of gameplay that puts controller-shaped holes in the windows.

Good thing the GoW QTE are all initiated specifically by the player so they're not surprises, and are usually pretty forgiving when you do screw up.

I don't have a problem with the last hit of a fight being a weak one - you have to pound on most bosses for a long time to get them down to that low HP anyway. I get that epic feel from being almost out of items and other resources (being vague because it depends on the specific game, but you get the idea). Or just avoiding the boss's attacks in order to be able to land my own.

Except you're doing that through the boss fights in GoW anyway, the QTE finishers are just the icing on the cake. I mean, God of War is the specific game in which we're discussing the merit of QTE's worth, are we not? And in this game, after you have to epically fight the boss with real time combat and dodging/blocking/countering/combo mechanics, the QTE finisher gives you a much more visceral, dominant finish to the battle with that massive, supposedly overpowering boss then winning with simple, single, weak lucky shot. Seeing as one of the core game features in the GoW series basically boils down to "This guy is badass, watch what he can do", QTE sequences allow the devs to have Kratos perform boss/environmentally specific finishing moves that cap off difficult, challenging fights.

Well, if that's true, then that's more of a problem than QTEs or no QTEs. You need ways to vary your actual gameplay to keep it interesting.

If the fight is really epic, it doesn't need an FMV ending -- it would only be anticlimactic compared to the fight itself, with or without a QTE. Conversely, no FMV ending can improve a boring fight against a weak boss.

Again, specifically talking about GoW here, there is a variety in the actual gameplay...well about as much as you can get in your basic hack and slash game. And the QTE finishers are just one aspect of this variety, used to emphasize story based, highly graphic finishers while keeping the player engaged in the game he's playing.

And most RPG fights, especially that of FFXI, disagree with your final comments. The rank 6 Shadow Lord fight was pretty boring and lame, but the ending cutscene was pretty kick ass. The cutscene alone was enough of a reason to do the fight. As many fights in many games have shown, sometimes the ending cinematic is a much better, much more satisfying ending then the in game death of the boss. However, with GoW and QTE finishers, they don't even need an FMV death since the death is actually part of the gameplay. You spend the entire battle fighting for your life in real time combat, jabbing and dodging and countering, then when you've beaten him enough to weaken him you have a chance to finish the fight in a very impressive, very over the top way. QTE finishers aren't meant to be difficult, engaging or hard, they're just meant to keep you in the game and give the player some semblance of "control" as their character does something over the top awesome that you normally aren't able to do. Those simple button presses take what would otherwise be a basic, run of the mill FMV and turn it into an actual part of the gameplay experience, which makes them that much more satisfying then simply watching an ending movie.

I prefer the KH2 approach where weak jabs don't kill, only combo finishers do. No fancy-pants annoying QTE bull, but still gives you a satisfying finish.

I'm not sure how the combo system in KH2 works, but QTE finishers are just over glorified, over simplified combos imo. They just allow your character to do moves and actions specifically tailored to that specific boss and that specific environment. It's a false "real-time" interaction between the player and the game world that allows gameplay and cinematics to merge into one almost seamless event. QTE isn't for everyone, nor is it meant to be in every game, but in a game like GoW, which more or less caters to the lowest common denominator...it's a pretty useful trick.

[Ufgt]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

Some people see QTEs are an extension of the cutscene, to make a cutscene have some interactivity. Others see QTEs as a devaluation of gameplay. making the action less actiony. Half Full/Half empty scenario.

Haters gonna hate.

[Lmnop]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

angst

You're hilarious. I bitch because the game is not all that unique. It's just bloody and has boobs.

God of War is Pop. Clear and simple. It appeals to as many people as possible (using the GTA formula of "amoralism quadruples sales") and does nothing new. Decent point for the game: the first GoW was decently polished but not superb. I imagine their budget has grown and the sequels are even cleaner.

I don't actually mind QTE, but some games are adept at making it a super bitch.

You want some underrated games from my own collection? I don't think it's even relevant to the discussion, but I like a challenge like this:

- Ico. Everyone loves it. So why are the sales so dismal?
- Soul Reaver. The first game I ever played with good voice acting. Not to mention an enthralling story.
- Indigo Prophecy. Their budget ran out because they had a radical idea. No one loans money to "radical idea makers". But I bought my copy. What am I supposed to do to help out more? Buy a share of their company?
- Pretty much any not-Final Fantasy RPG. Big winners are Xenogears and Shadow Hearts.

You want to talk about bitchery? Look at how huffy you get when I mention my irritation at games being measured by different standards.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

Some people see QTEs are an extension of the cutscene, to make a cutscene have some interactivity. Others see QTEs as a devaluation of gameplay. making the action less actiony. Half Full/Half empty scenario.

Haters gonna hate.

The QTEs that are extentions of cutscenes in Heavy Rain are awkward. You're given a choice that is in-line with out the character acts and then options that are totally out of character.

Given the characters are pre-defined and not the silent protagonist type, the QTE is not only a bad gameplay device, but now its being used to potentially cheapen characters by having this voyeuristic hand-of-god influence over them.

Ethan Mars says "Finding my son is all that matters" at a point in the game. And then right after he says that, he has the option to have sex with Madison.

So now its "Finding my son is all that matters, but not before I get my freak on."

In the context of action based gameplay, its just undermining everything you've learned about combat and defense by making the fight winnable by arbitrary button inputs. There are numerous ways to present this without having to resort to QTE.

[Ufgt]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

I can't comment on Heavy Rain because I haven't played it. Hell, I haven't even SEEN it.

But for action based games with heavy use of QTE (GoW more specifically, but there's a good number we can reference), the QTE is usually prefaced by the player having to actually earn such event (ie. do damage to the boss, hit a certain area x number of times, etc etc). As a GAMEPLAY device, it serves as both a reward and an intermission to the hack and slash style. As a PRESENTATION device, the QTE allows the devs to show the character in a way that is not possible with the in game combat engine.

You can argue that it trvializes boss fights to arbitrary button presses, but to get to that point, you would have had to earn it (either through reflex gameplay or problem solving). But, as with any gameplay elements, some people will enjoy them, and some people won't. That's just the nature of it. Haters gonna hate.

[Ziero]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

In the context of action based gameplay, its just undermining everything you've learned about combat and defense by making the fight winnable by arbitrary button inputs. There are numerous ways to present this without having to resort to QTE.

By the time you get to the point of QTEs in most action games, the fight is over and all that's left is the finisher. You've already fought the boss using everything you've learned about combat and defense, using your combos and specials, dodging and blocking the boss while countering with your own abilities. It's not "walk up to boss, start QTE", by the time the QTE buttons pop up, the boss is weak, dying, and ripe to be finished off in an over-dramatic, excessively graphic (in both content and polish) fashion.

I can't really comment on Heavy Rain's QTE, though your example seems more like a multiple choice adventure story input sequence, where you have the option to do one of XX things. I'm honestly not sure if that actually qualifies as a QTE though...certainly not one that could be compared to GoW's finishers. I only played the demo myself, and the only sequence I really saw as a QTE was the fight in the prostitute's room with the angry customer.

[Mezlo]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

What's QTE?

[DakAttack]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

What's QTE?

It stands for Quick Time Event. It's a cinematic scene that requires you to input an arbitrarily selected button being shown on the screen for the cinema to continue.

[Armando]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

By the time you get to the point of QTEs in most action games, the fight is over and all that's left is the finisher. You've already fought the boss using everything you've learned about combat and defense, using your combos and specials, dodging and blocking the boss while countering with your own abilities. It's not "walk up to boss, start QTE", by the time the QTE buttons pop up, the boss is weak, dying, and ripe to be finished off in an over-dramatic, excessively graphic (in both content and polish) fashion.

I don't see why the cinematic can't be played after beating the boss without the QTE.

I'm not sure how the combo system in KH2 works

Nothing special, you just hit the attack button repeatedly like a Zelda game. But in KH2 once the boss is down to 1 HP, only the last hit in the combo will finish it off, preventing anticlimactic jab kills.

[Feba]

Re: God of War 3. next gen revolutionary presentation?

It's a cinematic scene that requires you to input an arbitrarily selected button being shown on the screen for the cinema to continue.

Not always arbitrary. Some QTEs use logical buttons for the action; for example the 'attack' button. They're just unfortunately rare. The best usage of this that I can think of is MGS3, although most people don't realize that's a QTE of course, and it's not at all required.

---------- Post added at 05:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

- Ico. Everyone loves it. So why are the sales so dismal?

Because Sony won't sell it?

Seriously, you find me a new copy of Ico that's $20, not $100, and then we can ask this question again.

But in KH2 once the boss is down to 1 HP, only the last hit in the combo will finish it off, preventing anticlimactic jab kills.

This does have its own problem though, since you can get into infinite Combos at some point I believe, despite the finisher not being that much more impressive than any other hit.