Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

[lionx]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

What are you talking about? Alot of special moves are execution based to balance them off with even individual special moves.

Sonic Booms for example have VERY short recovery and NEED to be a charge motion...can you imagine how easy it would be for Guile to keep you the fuck away if it was a motion move? Seth's doesn't count because if you actually check the frame data, its as slow as Ken's Hadouken which is pretty slow.

Same for Zangief...you might as well make his 360 grab a regular throw command then. See how good Zangief will be once you do that. What about C.Viper's cancels? How easy it would be to create bullshit loops with her? Not only is execution part of balance but also keeps certain maneuvers hard to do to equate with the reward and a display of playing well. If everyone can do Viper's c.hp, feint HP thunder knuckle, c.hp cancel to EX Seismo, super jump cancel to burn kick juggle Ultra...then it devalues not only the balance of the move, but also those that tried to learn it. Its just something EVERYONE can do with minimal work. Its nothing special. (Yawn).


It just sounds like you don't have good execution and don't want to improve on it/spend the time like everyone else, to me. Might as well play Capcom vs SNK 2 on Easy Operation mode. Again, some games lets you make more mistakes than others. Combos and execution is just how far are you willing to be able to take that advantage. If you want a fighting game to last a long ass time and look boring at the same time, go ahead...but most people aren't.

I am not saying to keep doing long combos in SFIV because obviously its against your favor. I am however saying that it does seem not quite as fun as the other games because i feel artificially handicapped on any combo over 5. Like sure, i will sweep and end the combo and try for risky resets...i can deal with it. Would i rather not have it when i earned that opening? Yes...

Sometimes some combos are *so* difficult to execute that the devs didn't even realize they would be possible, and thus, don't balance them, and thus, they are brokenly good. But that's a *flaw* with the game where it happens, not a design feature. You shouldn't expect it to be imitated.

It might sound mean, but either you learn the move and bring out your character's true potential (which includes the "flaw"), or play without that advantage/ switch chars/quit the game. Again this isn't an MMORPG or some online game that is patched...you take it, use it to your advantage and surpass others that can't or leave it. The game doesn't care, all it knows is winning and losing...and certainly other players won't either.

These are two good articles imo...fighting games are totally different beasts than other patchable games.

Game Design, Psychology, Flow, and Mastery - Playing to Win Book - What Should Be�Banned?
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

[Ufgt]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

If the only thing keeping a move "balanced" is that the opponent might screw up the execution... then it isn't balanced at all.

Actually... in HDR, Sirlin considered making Dhalsim's super qcfx2 instead of hcbx2. When they tested this, they found out that motion made it too easy for dhalsim to react, so they left it as hcbx2.

There are plenty of moves that have their execution deeply integrated into its balance.

Another example, Fei's chicken wing in ST vs HDR. In ST, the motion was quite difficult to do consistently. The move was extremely powerful, having the ability to lock people down hardcore. In HDR, the move was changed to a qcf and subsequently had its recovery nerfed because if the move kept the same properties as it's ST version, it would be way too good.

[Armando]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Of course people take damage when they make mistakes, but the damage taken should be proportional to the mistake, which is precisely *why* landing a footsie jab shouldn't be comboable into 50% damage. Combos let you squeeze big damage into a small window; that's the problem with them.

No, this does not follow at all. What follows is that you shouldn't be able to combo footsie jabs into supers or ultras, not that combos are evil or detrimental to balance. And this is something quite easy to achieve from a game design standpoint - make sure the jab's stun time is less than the Super's start-up. Like I mentioned before, prorating the combo's damage when you start with specific hits is also an easy solution.

Sometimes some combos are *so* difficult to execute that the devs didn't even realize they would be possible, and thus, don't balance them, and thus, they are brokenly good. But that's a *flaw* with the game where it happens, not a design feature. You shouldn't expect it to be imitated.

Flawed thinking. Following this line of thought, there should never be, for example, improved blocking that depends on strict timing, because if the player could use this improved blocking every single time, he'd be unbeatable. Whoops, there goes Just Defend or Push Block in most modern fighters. For that matter, there goes throw escapes, because a player would be able to escape all throw attempts. Hell, the entire notion of fighting game offense is based on the fact that your opponent does not have the reaction time needed to block all attacks consistently. Nobody is foolish enough to suggest that the high/low block scheme is broken because someone could potentially pick high or low correctly every time.

But that's a *flaw* with the game where it happens, not a design feature.

It's only a flaw when humans can do it with any sort of realiability. Real match combos seldom even begin to approach the optimal combos demonstrated in combo videos with programmable controllers, just like for many games, non-assisted speedruns never approach the performance of tool-assisted speedruns. Fox in SSB Melee has the potential for guaranteed 0-death combos on pretty much any character if your performance is excellent, but in practice this never happens. For that matter Smash's defensive mechanisms could potentially allow any player to reliably get out of any combo in most situations, and even cheat death, but in practice no one has the insane reaction time and finger dexterity needed to do this.

You will never see Fox destroy people like this in any real Melee match:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euHUAbmkyAY"]YouTube- Adventure[/ame]
(For the fights against non-mook opponents, skip to 1:16, 1:52, 2:22, 2:44, 3:24, 4:44, 6:49, 7:07, and 9:25 onwards.)

[Karinya]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

No, this does not follow at all. What follows is that you shouldn't be able to combo footsie jabs into supers or ultras, not that combos are evil or detrimental to balance.

I didn't say that *all* combos are evil or detrimental to balance, that would be silly. Only ones that do excessive damage. (And of course the precise definition of "excessive" is arguable.) Maybe I didn't express that clearly.

ISTM that the whole point of whining about damage scaling is that someone who has spent a lot of hours practicing their combo thinks it *should* do excessive damage and they deserve to win just for performing it. Game balance does not work that way.

The basic point of fighting game balance (or, hell, any game balance) is that every strategy has a counterstrategy; if you know what your opponent is going to do before he does it, you can respond with the right counter and beat him. (Or, in games with randomness, probably beat him.) "Hope he screws up his execution" is not a counterstrategy.

Flawed thinking. Following this line of thought, there should never be, for example, improved blocking that depends on strict timing, because if the player could use this improved blocking every single time, he'd be unbeatable. Whoops, there goes Just Defend or Push Block in most modern fighters.

Um, no. In order to use improved blocking it's not enough to master the execution of pressing back. You also have to know *when* the opponent is going to attack, and with what type of attack (since advanced defenses generally only stop certain types of attacks -- e.g. high attacks other than throws; some games with counters and reversals are considerably more specific). Obviously, you don't usually know that against a skilled player -- the ability to vary their offense is one of the most important things that makes them skilled. If you *do* know that -- e.g. projectiles from fullscreen -- skilled players *can* use it every single time, or damn close, which is why that kind of obvious, predictable attack is hardly ever seen in skilled play.

Nobody is foolish enough to suggest that the high/low block scheme is broken because someone could potentially pick high or low correctly every time.

Nobody is foolish enough to suggest that blocking high is a move that is difficult to execute, either. Anyone can execute it. It's knowing WHEN to execute it that is the difference between skilled and unskilled players. In other words, you have already left the realm of execution difficulty and entered the realm of reading your opponent.

Combos are canned in a way that advanced defenses are not. You can't perform advanced defenses solely on muscle memory -- you have to respond to, or given the limits of human reflexes, anticipate the incoming attacks.


P.S. The point about Sonic Booms not being able to be done at a moment's notice, etc., is an interesting one, but kind of off-topic. There isn't really any question about whether or not a player can execute a Sonic Boom the way there is with the kind of combos that are relevant to this discussion; instead, there are some situations where nobody, no matter how skilled, can execute a Sonic Boom (i.e. they've been doing something other than holding back for the last 2 seconds) and others where anyone, including a complete noob, can execute one. That's not a matter of execution skill and it can't be overcome by practice.

[Armando]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

You're missing the point. You're arguing that moves and combos should be balanced under the assumption that players can perform them reliably, yet there are combos that are impossible to perform reliably. You suggest that developers should alter moves taken into consideration scenarios that will not occur.

You also imply that execution should never be a factor in a game that thrives on human error and limitations. Explain precisely why it's flawed to have a move or combo that's so hard to do that it can't be applied reliably without failures, give a higher reward than reliable moves and combos.

Nobody is foolish enough to suggest that blocking high is a move that is difficult to execute, either. Anyone can execute it. It's knowing WHEN to execute it that is the difference between skilled and unskilled players. In other words, you have already left the realm of execution difficulty and entered the realm of reading your opponent.

Pushing a button or moving a joystick is never difficult. Combinations of inputs with specific timings can be. The same can be said of blocking high or low. We only rely on reading the opponent because our reaction time isn't quick enough to rely on it. It's a legitimate defensive maneuver because humans can't do it perfectly reliably. Difficult combos are legitimate precisely because of that same reason, as long as a reasonable scale of difficulty:reward is respected.

EDIT: To add to what Lionx said, there's also Hugo's Gigas Breaker super from Third Strike, which did very high damage for a super move but required two 360's on the joystick without leaving the ground.

[lionx]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

"Hope he screws up his execution" is not a counterstrategy.

Welcome to the world of Street Fighter IV. With shortcut motions of uppercuts shortened to diagonal down forward twice for newbs, even Daigo mashes that motion until the spacing doesn't allow the uppercut to hit. Reward? SRK FADC => Ultraaaaz. All because you mistimed one link in your blockstring. At worst, you FADC and dash in front of the guy for a free 50/50 mixup all because of this shortcut for newbs to do the uppercut. Awesome isn't it?

Outside of that, i know the gaps and strings of certain characters in Capcom vs SNK 2, and i have uppercuted people with precision timing before, blowing through what seems to be safe blockstrings (which they normally are...the risk is more against me in CvS2 though with no shortcut motion or FADC to fall back on).

ISTM that the whole point of whining about damage scaling is that someone who has spent a lot of hours practicing their combo thinks it *should* do excessive damage and they deserve to win just for performing it. Game balance does not work that way.

Here is the problem...you are blaming the guy who practiced the combo and spent the time to make sure it lands reliably instead of yourself or the defender who did not block right or fucked up in some way. Instead of blaming the guy who did something right (punishing you), look at yourself for letting that happen. This is something every person needs to do when getting better at fighting games...stop blaming the system or the other guy for hitting you and think why you got hit due to YOUR error. This isn't about game balance.

Like you said:

The basic point of fighting game balance (or, hell, any game balance) is that every strategy has a counterstrategy

Theres always one, stop blaming others and get better. Again, the problem with the harsh scaling is that it makes characters more shallow, devalues the work so any newb will feel like they have a chance without putting in the work(but in every other game you have to), and also baby the newb for making the mistake artificially giving them the chance to come back. Can i deal with this? Yeah i could, but i rather not have it if given the choice.

Um, no. In order to use improved blocking it's not enough to master the execution of pressing back. You also have to know *when* the opponent is going to attack, and with what type of attack (since advanced defenses generally only stop certain types of attacks -- e.g. high attacks other than throws; some games with counters and reversals are considerably more specific). Obviously, you don't usually know that against a skilled player -- the ability to vary their offense is one of the most important things that makes them skilled. If you *do* know that -- e.g. projectiles from fullscreen -- skilled players *can* use it every single time, or damn close, which is why that kind of obvious, predictable attack is hardly ever seen in skilled play.

Combos are canned in a way that advanced defenses are not. You can't perform advanced defenses solely on muscle memory -- you have to respond to, or given the limits of human reflexes, anticipate the incoming attacks.

I play K Groove in CvS2, and i will say its not that hard to Just Defend...the more you play the more easy it is to know when people tend to attack and then vary it up. Its not something that is easily explained, but once you play enough, you can categorize and analyze people enough to make sure that most of your JDs work out.

There are also ways to buffer things like Parries or option select your way out of things,like tap back to block/JD then press fierce to tech a throw/hit them in the face to cover all my bases..its in my favor usually. Another example is to do Down + Sweep with a parry,,,press down to get a parry, at worst you parry nothing, and your sweep comes out anyway..same for Uppercut. It can get a little deep but overall its not that complicated to Parry or Just Defend. You can totally JD to the rhythm of a combo just by getting a feel playing the other guy or watching him do it twice or even once then punish.

Thats not to say i never get hit, but you are making these advanced defensive devices sound like its really hard...they arent.

P.S. The point about Sonic Booms not being able to be done at a moment's notice, etc., is an interesting one, but kind of off-topic. There isn't really any question about whether or not a player can execute a Sonic Boom the way there is with the kind of combos that are relevant to this discussion; instead, there are some situations where nobody, no matter how skilled, can execute a Sonic Boom (i.e. they've been doing something other than holding back for the last 2 seconds) and others where anyone, including a complete noob, can execute one. That's not a matter of execution skill and it can't be overcome by practice.

You talked about execution should not be part of balancing a move, but there is a reason why certain moves are charge instead of motion, or another command. What i did was put a really good move and putting them with a simpler command, and therefore be MUCH easier to execute. The game totally becomes very different once that happens.

Good players will find ways to charge 1.5 seconds(its not really 2 but people say it is) while executing their combos...i guarantee it. What separates these good players from others is that they have to work really hard to do that charge within their combos, whereas if the move was changed to a motion, it be piss easy to do thanks to the properties of that move. I can already imagine a bunch of extended combos that have multiple Sonic Booms inside them if it was changed to a motion...and thats besides the point that you wont be able to get close to Guile ever.

EDIT:

EDIT: To add to what Lionx said, there's also Hugo's Gigas Breaker super from Third Strike, which did very high damage for a super move but required two 360's on the joystick without leaving the ground.

Yeah can you imagine if everyone can do this? This is why when people can do a walking Gigas people go OHHHHH SHIIIITTTTT because its really hard to do and much less setup...and its fucking deadly if you can do that. But only a select few who invested in the grinding time can do it.

[Karinya]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

With shortcut motions of uppercuts shortened to diagonal down forward twice for newbs,

You really seem to take deep personal offense that people other than you can perform their character's moves. Like time spent in training mode should = wins, without anything else counting.

stop blaming the system or the other guy for hitting you and think why you got hit due to YOUR error. This isn't about game balance.

I know why I got hit. I also know why that hit got linked into a 40% damage combo. The first one isn't a game balance problem because it's related to something I did. The second one *is* a game balance problem because it *isn't* related to anything I did *or could have done*.

baby the newb for making the mistake artificially giving them the chance to come back.

So everyone makes mistakes, but anyone who makes mistakes is a "newb" who doesn't deserve an "artificial" chance to come back, they should just lose the round because they made one mistake? I can't even make any sense out of the argument in favor of no damage scaling (if that's what it is).

If you ever design a game, remind me not to play it. Like I said, if I want a game where the first hit ends the fight, I'll play Bushido Blade. Having chances to recover from mistakes is part of a well-designed game, and that includes making mistakes punishable but not EXCESSIVELY punishable. Excessive damage from a combo is no different, balance wise, from excessive damage from a move/super/ultra. It makes fights short and unsatisfying.

And that's the point of damage scaling as an aspect of game balance.


It would be possible to have a damage scaling algorithm where adding more hits to a combo couldn't make it weaker -- just have the scaling depend on the size of the hits rather than the order, so the biggest hit does full damage, the second biggest 80%, etc., regardless of where they are in the order of the combo. Then extra hits would add at least the minimum scaling amount because they couldn't change how the finisher was scaled. The downside of this approach is that you have to recalculate the whole combo after every hit (trivial on modern processors, but it makes the code more complex) and it's hard to understand.

There's nothing wrong with a system like that if the devs want to include it (provided that overall damage isn't excessive), but if they don't, live with it -- and don't expect combos to satisfy that kind of criterion in a game where they don't. With any kind of hit count based scaling, delaying a big damage finisher can demote it in the scaling system and potentially lower the overall damage (if the added intervening hit is small enough). So learn how to use the system effectively, or go play something else. That's no different than learning the properties, or for that matter the execution, of a character's moves. Complaining because you shoot yourself in the foot with the game system is... well, I can't think of any words to describe it.

[lionx]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

You really seem to take deep personal offense that people other than you can perform their character's moves. Like time spent in training mode should = wins, without anything else counting.

I don't think you understand the effects of the shortcut and missed what i meant when i quoted you. First...the shortcut IS made for beginners according to devs and at first i didn't really think much about it.

But after playing for a couple months, i realized that this shortcut(along with huge reversal window) created some pretty stupid things. An example of sorts would be, say i do low shorts into a low forward as a block string onto your character. In past games, if you were to uppercut that, you would be forced to stand up because the motion is forward, down, then down-fwrd. This means you will get hit by a low attacks even if there is a small gap between those attacks. The window for doing the uppercut is smaller too so you cannot mash this motion and expect the bad player to get out of the blockstring.

In SFIV, if you press diagonal down forward while blocking the same string, you will have almost 0 risk involved in this. In SFIV(along with alot of other SF games), once you block you stay blocking due to Absolute Block. Therefore you can mash tapping diagonal forward hoping the other guy will mess up his blockstring due to low blockstun in this game. The huge reversal window doesn't help this, and the rewards tend to be phenomenally in the favor of the blocker/masher.

This opens up alot of things like making offense much harder to achieve, making uppercut characters unnecessarily more dangerous, theres never a disadvantaged position for the defender(hence fake offense) and makes "Hoping someone screwing up" in execution an actual counter strategy, which is what i was trying to get at.

I do not take any offense to people being able to do things i can do or better(thats silly), and i would certainly hope i play people better than me. Also let me be clear that I also do not think training mode = instant win, i believe in applying the experience attained only through countless matches.

I can't even make any sense out of the argument in favor of no damage scaling (if that's what it is).

My argument is that SFIV's damage scaling is way too harsh and it presents a myriad of problems because of it. I play many other fighting games that do have damage scaling, namely CvS2 and i like how it is done there. I can extend my combos if i have the execution to do so, and do more damage than i would have than if i haven't done it, and at the same time the scaling is just right where i feel rewarded for my efforts while still controlling the amount of damage done.

I never have had use my meter to land my Ultra/Super, then think "Really now? All that didn't kill him at that low a life?!"

You may not like a game with excessive damage (i don't like extremes), but SFIV is at the opposite extreme of the spectrum with this. I already told you that i do adapt to SFIV's combo system and mechanics, I do have fun with it to a degree when playing others. I just don't prefer it for it to stay this way for various reasons.



EDIT: Here a dev. Blog translate to stay somewhat on topic. Its about Makoto who of which i am very interested in playing because of her offensive playstyle. Hopefully it can change my tune about the game since she IS all about resets and hard hitting simple combos.

http://www.shoryuken.com/content.php...g-Talks-Makoto

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxke7BGgMow"]YouTube- Street Fighter 3: J (Makoto) vs Kokujin (Dudely)[/ame]

[Armando]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

You really seem to take deep personal offense that people other than you can perform their character's moves. Like time spent in training mode should = wins, without anything else counting.

Like he said, you missed the point, and have missed it several times over already. Again, a move's balance should take into account the motion needed to execute it - how difficult the motion is, how much time it takes to complete, whether it temporarily forces you to drop guard or change guard stances, whether it has a time limit to execute, etc. Suppose you could map a shoryuken to a single button - do you think the move would be just as fair? You could mash that button over and over as quickly as your fingers can go while blocking and get free counters. This isn't a matter of e-peen, it's a matter of the move's execution being a real factor on its fairness. If a super required HCFx3 followed by two backwards 360s while grounded, you can bet your ass that Super better do a shitload more damage than other characters' for all that trouble. Shoryuken motions don't require hours of training to do, but they're certainly more complicated and less spammable than tapping down-forward twice.

Like I said, if I want a game where the first hit ends the fight, I'll play Bushido Blade. Having chances to recover from mistakes is part of a well-designed game, and that includes making mistakes punishable but not EXCESSIVELY punishable.

You keep thinking in absolutes. No one's saying damage scaling is a bad thing. The point they're trying to convey is that you can't have damage scaling that's too severe, or you give beginners and advanced players similar performance. Imagine you had a game where damage scaling worked like this:
First hit: 100% damage
Second hit: 30% damage
Third, fourth, fifth, sixth: 5%, 4%, 3%, 2% respectively
Seventh+: 1%

Now suppose you have two players playing against each other. The first has just picked up Cammy, a character whose combos he doesn't know. The second is using Guile and knows his combos inside out. Both players punish the other with roughly equal frequency. CammyPlayer can only do 2-3 hit combos with her, GuilePlayer consistently punishes with 5-6 hit combos. Technically Guile is doing more damage than Cammy with each combo, but only slightly so. Why should CammyPlayer reap similar rewards as GuilePlayer? It makes no sense. GuilePlayer knows his character inside out and has the dexterity and experience needed to bring out the full potential of Guile's combos. Why is he being rewarded on the same level as someone who can only combo into 1 or 2 moves?

Now take that same concept and un-exaggerate it. Suppose GuilePlayer isn't doing near-identical damage to Cammy player, but still isn't doing substantially more. That's less bad, but still stupid.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

EDIT: To add to what Lionx said, there's also Hugo's Gigas Breaker super from Third Strike, which did very high damage for a super move but required two 360's on the joystick without leaving the ground.

Dear god that move is bananas.
It's damn hard to pull it off just in training mode, but to pull it off on the fly, without leaving the ground, with your opponent not pressing the offensive forcing you to parry or block and while being in range(the range is freaking tiny)...if the planets align for all that and you manage to execute then yes, having Hugo eat over half your health bar is perfectly acceptable.

[Ufgt]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

SRKs in SFIV become low risk, high reward because of easy motions + FADC. It stiffles offense because the only counter to a mashed SRK in block stun is to block yourself (since the reversal window is huge, you can't stuff SRKs), thus slowing down your offensive advantage and turning the game more defensive than it should be.

Turtles win in SFIV and this is just one of the reasons WHY turtling is so successful. And turtle matches are never fun. There's a PLETHORA of problems with SFIV and that is why I have dropped it until Super is out.

Lets put it this way: confirmed in Super is an ACROSS THE BOARD nerf of SRKs (some people are getting damage nerfs, others are getting hitbox tweaks). This should tell you that Vanilla SFIV IS broken. Will this nerf fix things? I don't feel it will, but I'll wait and see.

EDIT: To add to Lionx's point of easy motions causing balance problems, the fact that you can do an SRK with the motion of DF, DB, DF + P means that you never have to STAND in order to SRK. This means your hitbox is lower to the ground, giving you MORE time to input SRK motions against jumpins. This is hugely important.

[Maju]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

As for the DOA fighting games and its extended universe, it an die for all I care. Especially once they started inserting DoA characters in Ninja Gaiden and making these horrific stories for that series. I miss the NES era of that series so much. Much better storytelling for all the sadism they threw at me, especially in the first and third games.

The NES Ninja Gaiden games have some of the worst stories I've ever seen. Also, technically they added a NG character (Ryu Hayabusato) to DoA, not the other way around.

Ok, you guys can carry on with the fighting game debate now.

[Karinya]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

An example of sorts would be, say i do low shorts into a low forward as a block string onto your character. In past games, if you were to uppercut that, you would be forced to stand up because the motion is forward, down, then down-fwrd. This means you will get hit by a low attacks even if there is a small gap between those attacks. The window for doing the uppercut is smaller too so you cannot mash this motion and expect the bad player to get out of the blockstring.

Lol, no. You input the forward part of the motion during blockstun, when the standing animation will not execute (and you will also not be hit until the next attack of the blockstring because you have already blocked the previous one). It's the same principle as doing attack XX 720 super without jumping (which I have done with Zangief in, iirc, A3, although I agree it is hard to work in in an actual fight without being bloody obvious about it), except obviously it takes a lot fewer frames to perform a DP motion.

The trick is you have to be out of blockstun when you reach the end of the command, or that won't execute either; in most old games your blockstun would last longer than the attacker's recovery, which meant there was effectively 0 risk involved in the blockstring because there was no frame when you could perform a reversal (even with a very high priority attack like jab DP) until pushback from the blockstring has moved you out of range.

In SFIV, if you press diagonal down forward while blocking the same string, you will have almost 0 risk involved in this. In SFIV(along with alot of other SF games), once you block you stay blocking due to Absolute Block. Therefore you can mash tapping diagonal forward hoping the other guy will mess up his blockstring due to low blockstun in this game. The huge reversal window doesn't help this, and the rewards tend to be phenomenally in the favor of the blocker/masher.

Hmm. Sounds to me like the devs didn't want blockstrings to be 100% safe. So isn't it your fault that you relied on blockstrings in a game in which they are deliberately not safe, and left yourself open to being punished by a counterattack? Why whine about that when you can get better by not using predictable blockstrings?

Neither the attacker nor the defender is 100% safe in a blockstring in SFIV -- sounds to me like a good thing.

If you attack once or twice, then switch to blocking, the "counter" will come out and you will block it, and I'm sure I don't have to tell you that many uppercuts are horribly vulnerable after they are blocked. That's superior play -- anticipating what your opponent is going to do and taking advantage of it, rather than walking into it by trying to blindly continue your blockstring.

[lionx]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Lol, no. You input the forward part of the motion during blockstun, when the standing animation will not execute (and you will also not be hit until the next attack of the blockstring because you have already blocked the previous one)

In every SF game you can switch from High to Low, and Low to High block without any frames inbetween. In SFIV this is the same. If Chun Li does a deep jumping fierce chain, you can block the first hit high, then block low during blockstun and get hit by the second one.

If you were able to Mash it out in older games, you would get hit if it was a true blockstring. Here is the problem...even in games like CvS2 where theres hard linking for certain blockstrings (meaning its not 0 risk), it would be very hard for the person to mash out the command like in SFIV. The huge window in SFIV and the safe shortcut leads to even the same links that would work in both games, much more dangerous. Plus uppercuts have huge rewards in this game.

You are acting like people can get blockstrings off 100% every time and that reversal DPs are super hard to do in SFIV. Also...are you saying in older games theres no moves that have more recovery than their blockstun here?

Hmm. Sounds to me like the devs didn't want blockstrings to be 100% safe. So isn't it your fault that you relied on blockstrings in a game in which they are deliberately not safe, and left yourself open to being punished by a counterattack? Why whine about that when you can get better by not using predictable blockstrings?

Neither the attacker nor the defender is 100% safe in a blockstring in SFIV -- sounds to me like a good thing.

Seriously.........? o_O....not going to even bother with this, so many things wrong.

If you attack once or twice, then switch to blocking, the "counter" will come out and you will block it, and I'm sure I don't have to tell you that many uppercuts are horribly vulnerable after they are blocked. That's superior play -- anticipating what your opponent is going to do and taking advantage of it, rather than walking into it by trying to blindly continue your blockstring.

I don't think you know what a blockstring is important for. Outside of that, didn't you read any of my other posts? You only mash until you know the distance between you and the attacker is too far then you STOP DOING IT. The odds are all in your favor. Its the same shit as throwing fireballs until you get into that magical area where they can jump over and punish you...no idiot is going to keep doing something when its no longer safe. Barring that theres FADC to make your mashing safe, with the best outcome you get an Ultra, and the worst you get a 50/50.

I am not talking about some scrubby player that just mashes and hopes for the best...i am talking about smart opponents doing this. Like i said before, even Daigo Umehara does this. Its too much in the defender's favor.

[Armando]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Hmm. Sounds to me like the devs didn't want blockstrings to be 100% safe. So isn't it your fault that you relied on blockstrings in a game in which they are deliberately not safe, and left yourself open to being punished by a counterattack? Why whine about that when you can get better by not using predictable blockstrings?

The point isn't that it's wrong for a block string to be punishable, it's that the reversals are too easy, spammable and safe. You don't have to continue holding back because of absolute guard, and you never have to go into High block, so you can continue to spam the input. Might as well have the game do it for you. In other games where the motion actually requires F, D, DF (or 623 if you prefer number notation) or there's no absolute guard, you have to bother to time the input.

If you attack once or twice, then switch to blocking, the "counter" will come out and you will block it, and I'm sure I don't have to tell you that many uppercuts are horribly vulnerable after they are blocked. That's superior play -- anticipating what your opponent is going to do and taking advantage of it, rather than walking into it by trying to blindly continue your blockstring.

Except the opponent can cancel the shoryuken with Focus Attack like Lionx and Ufgt have been saying, and this puts the attacker at risk, since any opponent can wise up and go for a throw if you start breaking your block strings for no reason. The attacker is still on the losing end of the bargain while the defender can comfortably wait for the situation to reverse in his favor.