Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

[Ufgt]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Combine stupid dmg scaling with even MORE dmg scaling when a character is near death and you get a really dumb system.

Any A basically will prorate the combo in Blaz. It's because A's can counterhit so easily that if they didn't prorate damage, it would be like Melty Blood before Actress Against: A c.a spam fest.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure no human being can do that Able combo

[lionx]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Its possible to do it, but its impeccably hard to do (much less set it up the same way) so thats why its tool assisted. I just thought that video showed a great example on how harsh the damage scaling is in SFIV.

I have done a 20 hit combo ending in an Ultra with Ken before with the opponent 1/4 life..i used all my meter and he didn't die...>_>...yeeeep.

[Ufgt]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Double FADC combos are pretty much never worth it unless it's round 3 and you know it will kill.

God, SFIV is awful.

[jenova_9]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

The damage scaling is a good thing. 100% damage combos are what's retarded in fighting games.

Good damage scaling prevents possible infinites and 50-100% damage combos from turning a fight into a one man circus.

It's not like the combos stop doing damage at all. It just keeps the playing field less one-sided compared to back then when you can win the round with just one or two combos.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PScv8VNV7Lo"]YouTube- (Super) Street Fighter 2 (Turbo) - Cheats and Bugs[/ame]

okay jokes aside here's what I mean :p

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVuRxxnNPE"]YouTube- Ryu - SSF2X 100% combo[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ0BbNJFAaU"]YouTube- SFIII: 3rd Strike - The 100% Damage Video[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZPJRH_CE7U"]YouTube- Street Fighter Alpha 3: V-R.Mika 100% Damage Combo[/ame]

[Karinya]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Exactly. If I never see a crouching jab into 40% damage again I'll be perfectly happy with it, and a goddamn infinite NEEDS to be killed.

If I wanted a game where the first hit could end the match I'd dust off Bushido Blade.

In games without combo breakers, the maximum damage of the whole combo is effectively the reward for landing the first hit. If the first hit is something quick and unpunishable, that reward can't be too high.

Although I notice a lot of those videos are against Akuma, who in some versions has an abnormally short lifebar (when played in VS) to compensate for his moveset. 100% damage on Akuma doesn't necessarily mean the same combo would do 100% on Zangief. But even 50% is a pretty excessive amount of damage for any one combo that the opponent can do absolutely nothing about once you land the first hit.

[lionx]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Theres a difference between damage scaling to keep things in check and just flat out penalizing the player for spending the time to be able to do the combo in the first place. Its not like SFA3 or any other game after ST didn't have damage scaling, they all did. However because it is SO harsh in SFIV, it just feels artificial and is just a way to make newbs feel better because they don't have to learn anything complicated. It just dumbs down the game.
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Outside of your joke video, that second video of yours is almost impossible to do. Have you even played ST? To gain meter without touching the other guy is lol, and to even be able to do that combo without tool assist is extremely hard. Try it and get it to combo...its REALLY hard. If they can do it they deserve the win. I have never seen this in competitive play ever...or any play due to difficulty, setups, and other factors.

Third vid is Third Strike which i am not familiar with. But i do know Akuma is a LOW LIFE & LOW STUN character. Alot of these combos won't be 100% if its anyone but Akuma (and if you choose him, you knew what you were getting into). Some of those are impractical as well like Makoto's 100% with double taunt power bonus(like anyone would let you get over 2 if you decide to break momentum for whatever reason) or Hugo's taunt bonus.

Fourth vid is pretty legit however...too bad R.Mika sucks and usually does not even get into position to do that combo =/ It is SFA3 though which is a game of who plays better footsies to land that Custom. There is a legit game in this even with 100% combos in V-ism because its a situational kind of combo that can be countered in various ways. Theres another layer to it...

That being said Combo Videos are one thing...but actually playing and executing them out in a real match is another. How many videos out there can replicate alot of these? Not many if at all. Actual play and combovideos are vastly different beings.

Do you really think THIS is possible in a real match? How often and how can it be set up if the answer is yes?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwrk7wDeXi0"]YouTube- Super Smash Bros 64 (TAS) - Kirby Combos[/ame]


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In SFIV there are many times that i could have extended a combo but choose not to because of damage scaling. When you have to think about stuff like this and then dumb down your play, then the scaling is way too harsh which lets anyone and their grandma feel pro.

When the other guy is dizzy in a middle of a combo and your best option is just to knock them down to reset the combo meter because of damage scaling, theres an issue. When i do MORE damage by hitting Abel's Ultra Raw instead of comboing into them(which does CONSIDERABLY less) thats another issue too! Why am i being punished for playing well? This isn't smart, this is dumbing the game down for the masses.

tl;dr, => I have no problem with damage scaling and it is in just about every game there is Street Fighter related. However SFIV's system dumbs down the game considerably. People should not be punished for playing well.



EDIT: Karinya - I do think you need to know the concept of footsies where you have to get into position to land that jab in the first place. Just LANDING that hit or getting to that position to start it like that is so much more part of the game in Street Fighter and far more complex a thing to talk about (which can literally span pages) than doing combos which you learn in Training. Its a huge reason why on that Fourth video jenova_9 posted, is still a very deep and legit game.

My view on this is, if you let them get that close to start some of these combos, then there was a fault with your footsie game and you need to re-evaluate that and improve yourself rather than blame the other guy for playing superior to you and landing those hits he EARNED.

[jenova_9]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

nope nope, even the developers have made it clear, ALL the testing in the world cannot avoid the UNEXPECTED.

Even the combos in Street Fighter 2 were things the developers never expected and never found when they made it.

There are always the risk of 50% damage combos, infinites and such that plagues games like MvC2, Blazblue, KOF11, etc.

Fighting games should avoid going in that direction and I'm so glad SFIV series keeps the damage scaling to the point where
it doesn't hand the victory over to the person who spams the highest number hitting combo just because they got their first hit of
the combo in there. Combos are nice, flashy and skillful, but they turn a fighting game into a landslide when the numbers start hitting close or over the double digits. People can go play Tekken if they like one sided punishments. To me they are anti-climactic and only good for show on youtube.

I know people who play fighting games for nothing but the combos. Always in training, always just finding and using the combos to do the most hits that would be game breaking if it wasn't for damage scaling.

Normal combos are good. But beyond that they become an exaggeration, and poison to a fighting game. Ya if the first hit is comboable, the
player deserves to follow up with a combo, but not to the point where they can ride the combo until the opponent's health bar is empty.

I agree a 1/4 bar of health should be empty if hit with a combo that is linked into an Ultra.
But not when the combo started since the opponent had 100% or even 50% health left. That's just cheese.

[Armando]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

In games without combo breakers, the maximum damage of the whole combo is effectively the reward for landing the first hit. If the first hit is something quick and unpunishable, that reward can't be too high.

This is what proration is for. In Guilty Gear if you start a combo with certain hits (almost always jabs, but often certain specials and command throws that set up for further hits as well) the rest of the hits in the combo have their damage reduced by a certain % in addition to the usual damage scaling. It's a very easy way to prevent excessive rewards for getting in easy hits without killing combo potential completely. Having combos that require going into some sort of mix-up or 50-50 choice in order to get max damage is another option, since there will be times where the defender will guess right and break out of it.

I think the point others were trying to get across is that there needs to be a balance. Excessive damage scaling is almost as stupid as a severe lack of it. The fact that it's not broken in one direction doesn't mean it can't be broken in the opposite way. Not the first time I've brought it up but Brawl is an insanely bland game precisely because it was the polar opposite of Melee's hyper-offensive game style. You can always escape after any hit unless it's one of the game's many infinites or exploits.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Jen do you even play fighting games against actual opponents? It really sounds like you're coming at this from the perspective of someone who's never gone toe-to-toe with an opponent who knows what they're doing.

[lionx]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Jenova_9-

Never has a fighting game been less about developers but about what the players find in the game. Its not like FFXI where they patch it, take it or leave it.

If you hate combos so much play oldschool Street fighter where its all about spacing and predicting the opponent. Even in that 2nd video you posted, combos play a very small role in the game despite what you linked. It just CAN be done, but very impractical to ever land much less atempt(less than 2% if even that high...watch some japanese players play it and see how often this happens).

To be quite honest, combos are one of the few things that keep SFIV afloat due to the lack of damage you do in your moves from damage scaling, the lack of chip damage, and the lack of a guard meter. Having at least one of those would promote much better offense that is severely lacking. Many a time i would see things i see in oldschool battles just painted over with something new and lasting 60 seconds longer.

Fighting games should avoid going in that direction and I'm so glad SFIV series keeps the damage scaling to the point where
it doesn't hand the victory over to the person who spams the highest number hitting combo just because they got their first hit of
the combo in there. Combos are nice, flashy and skillful, but they turn a fighting game into a landslide when the numbers start hitting close or over the double digits. People can go play Tekken if they like one sided punishments. To me they are anti-climactic and only good for show on youtube.

Combos are actually a SMALL part of every street fighter game. It has always been the spacing, your poking, and opening up your opponent to land those combos that make the game much more than it is.

I implore you to read this(or even glance over all the articles): sonic hurricane dot com � Street Fighter Footsies Handbook, Chapter 1

Theres like 10+ chapters and still growing of vast Street Fighter knowledge in this article series. These strategies are very hard to formulate into words for others to understand (took this guy 20+ years!!) and to be seen in videos, but are a very VERY important part of Street Fighter. If you ever think combos are so central to a game then you missed fighting games as a whole already. Combos are easy and just routine muscle memory once you get it down the mat, setting it up among other various factors is what makes everything, even something simple as landing a hit, so god like.

I bet you more than $100 dollars that i can beat EVERYONE who just works on combos in Training Mode but lack actual play experience.

Infinites however are another factor that varies from game to game. In some games they are fine due to setups and execution barriers, but others are pretty dumb if they are easy to do. Instead of bitching though, i either play it so i can compete with them or just move on.

[Ufgt]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

I have lots to say about this issue but I'm at work so I'll have to type up something later. I'll say this for right now though:

Fighting games require both a mental (footsies) and physical (execution) aspect. If either one of these greatly outweighs the other, the game is bad. SFIV has a vastly reduced physical aspect when compared to games like CvS2 and ST (re: wide open reversal windows, easy SRK execution, reduced emphasis on combos due to damage scaling, etc).

[Karinya]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Theres a difference between damage scaling to keep things in check and just flat out penalizing the player for spending the time to be able to do the combo in the first place.

There's no penalizing. You're free to use a shorter combo in situations where it's more effective.

If the devs want to make super long combos Awesome But Impractical, more power to them. Not every game needs to be MvC2. Developing the muscle memory to execute dial-a-combos is a tedious chore that distracts from the real gameplay of a fighter: the mind games.

And you can't develop a real mind game if a match only takes a few hits/combos to end. You might as well be playing rock-paper-scissors at that point. Excessive combo damage is just as bad as giving everyone too few hit points (or the equivalent).

Its not like SFA3 or any other game after ST didn't have damage scaling, they all did. However because it is SO harsh in SFIV, it just feels artificial and is just a way to make newbs feel better because they don't have to learn anything complicated. It just dumbs down the game.

Performing long combos is not intelligence. It is also not skill. (Well, I guess it is a skill, but not what people normally mean by skill in a game.)

Try it and get it to combo...its REALLY hard. If they can do it they deserve the win.

You have a very strange definition of "deserve".

In SFIV there are many times that i could have extended a combo but choose not to because of damage scaling. When you have to think about stuff like this and then dumb down your play, then the scaling is way too harsh which lets anyone and their grandma feel pro.

It's not dumbing down to use a more effective play rather than a less effective play. That's practically the definition of smart play.

When i do MORE damage by hitting Abel's Ultra Raw instead of comboing into them(which does CONSIDERABLY less) thats another issue too! Why am i being punished for playing well? This isn't smart, this is dumbing the game down for the masses.

I'm not that familiar with Abel, but for a lot of moves, a 2 in 1 has less risk than just doing the special, since you can stop if your first hit doesn't land (and therefore not be open during the recovery time of a blocked special). I would definitely put in a tradeoff for that if I was developing a balanced game.

And it's probably going to seem repetitive at this point, but doing something that is less effective isn't playing well.

[jenova_9]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Jen do you even play fighting games against actual opponents? It really sounds like you're coming at this from the perspective of someone who's never gone toe-to-toe with an opponent who knows what they're doing.

oh ya I definitely play fighting games online.

Karinya said it best.

you can't develop a real mind game if a match only takes a few hits/combos to end. You might as well be playing rock-paper-scissors at that point. Excessive combo damage is just as bad as giving everyone too few hit points (or the equivalent).

the only ones who dislikes the damage scaling are just people who wanna punish others without a chance for the opponent to have a comeback. people should quit praising high number, high damaging combos that are unstoppable once they start,
they only look cool in combo exhibitions, but in real matches you play, it's total cheese that lacks the balance to present a more balanced and exciting fight. one sided matches are the most boring type of matches of them all, and long high damage combos only makes it worse.

[Armando]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

Not every game needs to be MvC2. Developing the muscle memory to execute dial-a-combos is a tedious chore that distracts from the real gameplay of a fighter: the mind games.

And you can't develop a real mind game if a match only takes a few hits/combos to end. You might as well be playing rock-paper-scissors at that point. Excessive combo damage is just as bad as giving everyone too few hit points (or the equivalent).

Ok. Let's make racing games that drift and hug curves for the player. The real point is knowing the route, so why leave room for execution error, right? Combos don't have to be MvC2-fast or long to be hard, by the way.

The real issue isn't the total damage of the combos but the way they scale. The gameplay is watered down if combo damage drops sharply as the combo continues. It trivializes execution, because someone who doesn't have the dexterity for full or standard combos will do similar damage to someone that does have the dexterity. It's not rewarding performance. It's why they suggest it's pandering to people that don't want to put effort into the game and want to still do as well as those that do.

Fighting games are not about mind games. They're about mind games and execution. You can't shun one or the other.

It's not dumbing down to use a more effective play rather than a less effective play. That's practically the definition of smart play.

It can be, however, stupidly unintuitive and aggravating if you have to be worrying about more hits resulting in less damage. That's not smart design.

Good damage scaling prevents possible infinites and 50-100% damage combos from turning a fight into a one man circus.

Damage scaling is not for preventing infinites.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Super Street Fighter IV ! SFIII characters trailer!

oh ya I definitely play fighting games online.

Karinya said it best.



the only ones who dislikes the damage scaling are just people who wanna punish others without a chance for the opponent to have a comeback. people should quit praising high number, high damaging combos that are unstoppable once they start,
they only look cool in combo exhibitions, but in real matches you play, it's total cheese that lacks the balance to present a more balanced and exciting fight. one sided matches are the most boring type of matches of them all, and long high damage combos only makes it worse.

You are confusing Infinite Juggles with 3-hit Combos.
If you can't differentiate between the two then you really have no credibility, but we already knew that.