Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

[Cheezeman3000]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

Reviewers have already debunked this. Your inputs mean little to nothing to progress many events in the game.

That's dissappointing. Still, whenever I failed to press a button in time during the demo I ended up getting my ass handed to me lol. So it still affects what happens on the screen, but apparently in a micro rather than a macro way.

[Feba]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

Shenmue has that nice real-life atmosphere to it, but in terms of the main plot, its just as linear as any point-and-click.

Perhaps so, but the game-like feeling is largely absent. I suppose Shenmue is also different from Indigo Prophecy-- it doesn't set out to be a game or a movie as much as a life. Not a life you have a ton of control over, but a life nonetheless.

I dislike Heavy Rain and to a similar extent, visual novels because they have fully lobotomized the game element. This should not be hard to understand. If they bear no real win/loss scenario, no use of critical thinking or skill, then it is a disservice to gaming to call them games.

Eh. You can define games however you like. But Heavy Rain is no less a game for not meeting your criteria than a children's picture book is not a book because it doesn't meet someone's definition of literature. Is it different? Certainly. Is it better? Not necessarily. Is it still a book? Yes. Nobody's asking you to like it, but comments like this are just as annoying and juvenile to us as saying that the Wii isn't hardcore is to you. You're making your own definitions, and then deciding for yourself whether something meets that or not, without even examining it for itself.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

Perhaps so, but the game-like feeling is largely absent. I suppose Shenmue is also different from Indigo Prophecy-- it doesn't set out to be a game or a movie as much as a life. Not a life you have a ton of control over, but a life nonetheless.

Shenmue tended to celebrate being a game in its own ways - from the arcade to the little Sega toys you could pick up along the way.

Eh. You can define games however you like. But Heavy Rain is no less a game for not meeting your criteria than a children's picture book is not a book because it doesn't meet someone's definition of literature. Is it different? Certainly. Is it better? Not necessarily. Is it still a book? Yes.

I have a deck of cards

I'm going to use them for fortune telling or I'm going to play a game with them. Either way there will be interaction with those varied cards for the purpose of entertainment, thus, there will be a game.

But if each hand is scripted by the dealer, I can fumble through and win without a modicum of skill - How is that a game? People don't just roll over for Kobe and Shaq when they come down the lane with the ball. No one is going to throw the race for the sake of Jeff Gordon's self esteem when sponsors are at stake. There is no auto-pilot for Ms. Pac-Man.

These are not silly little definitions I'm making up along the way - no, that's what you are doing. See, games have rules that are agreed upon by a group of people, otherwise games don't function. Each game has its own kinds of rules and its these rules that determine who wins.

I know there are people that don't like to lose, but that's life. Losing is a learning experience, but take that away and what's there to learn?

[Cheezeman3000]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

These are not silly little definitions I'm making up along the way - no, that's what you are doing. See, games have rules that are agreed upon by a group of people, otherwise games don't function. Each game has its own kinds of rules and its these rules that determine who wins.

I see what you're saying here, but in my definition of game, there doesn't even need to be a winner. Let's look at what Wikipedia says shall we.

"A game is a structured activity, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool. [...] Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both. Many games help develop practical skills, serve as a form of exercise, or otherwise perform an educational, simulational or psychological role."

Seems like there's four key components there we can agree on, so let's compare these components with (the DEMO of) Heavy Rain.

Goals: Easy, you need to figure out what to do in each area and respond accordingly.
Rules: Also easy, the game makers have set up specific rules that you must follow. You can't go under the yellow tape unless you move the control stick in the correct direction. You can't walk until you press R2.
Challenge: This is where we will probably differ in opinion. In my opinion, the most satisfying way to play through Heavy Rain will be to play through the story eliciting the best sequences possible. In order to do that you must respond correctly in every given situation, which I could certainly see as being a challenge, especially since I was easily able to mess it up in the first level. So in THIS game, your "reward" is not your ability to progress through the game, but instead is to see the best sequences as the game progresses. We know that on a macro scale the game is always the same, but I know firsthand that your experience changes based on how you react on the micro scale.
Interaction: Finally, this one's easy, seeing as we're playing a videogame, which requires interaction no matter what.

Like I said, I do understand what you're saying, but I would prefer not to limit my definition of "game" as much as you are. If we use Wikipedia's general definition, we can definitely classify this as a game.

[Feba]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

Shenmue tended to celebrate being a game in its own ways - from the arcade to the little Sega toys you could pick up along the way.

So all you need to do is be a video game is include minigames and pointless things to collect?

[Malacite]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

Here was another fun tidbit about the game.

You know that whole bit in crime investigation shows where the FBI guy walks up to crime scene and they ask to see his badge?

Well, you're actually supposed to flash the badge, but the game makes no effort to suggest how you might do that. After expecting it to happen and trying everything on the controller, most people finally found it was tilting forward the right analog stick.

You must be fucking blind then because I saw the semi-circle indicator in the bottom right of the screen right away. The game doesn't obscure anything, ever. There are a few sequences where you need to be fast (I've ALMOST gotten a perfect run during the fight scene at the appartment, messed up 1 button) but it's always clearly indicated on-screen what you have to do.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

You must be fucking blind then because I saw the semi-circle indicator in the bottom right of the screen right away. The game doesn't obscure anything, ever. There are a few sequences where you need to be fast (I've ALMOST gotten a perfect run during the fight scene at the appartment, messed up 1 button) but it's always clearly indicated on-screen what you have to do.

Ya the prompts for the demo were very clear. My son and I played it today and didn't have a problem knowing what to do but doing it right was another thing. lol

[Malacite]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

I wonder what happens if you either totally mess up the fight, or if you can even just leave her to her fate and walk away.

Didn't like the crime scene investigation so much. Seriously wtf is up with the sci-fi shades?

[ShepardG]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

REally?

...

The Game, You lose

[Lmnop]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

Not being able to win or lose in the strictest sense doesn't bother me. Ok, so you can sit the controller down and get a slightly worse ending. Doesn't bother me in the least. More of an interactive story that way, actually. After all, who wants to see a movie that might NOT have an ending? "I was watching this flick where the main character died in some creepy house, 10 minutes in. Then the credits rolled."

Though... when I was a kid, I let the other kids when at games because they got angry when they lost and I didn't mind one way or another. I'm the anti-competitive.

AlSO: thanks, Shep. I forgot what I was doing...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

Let's take Resident Evil as an example for a moment.

OK, now let's take away the zombies and ammo/item management and just strip it down to items for puzzle solving.

We have new entered the world of a point-and-click adventure, I'm now playing something more akin to Myst or Broken Sword.. So now we're just wandering area to area potentially dealing with a story-based threat determined - at best - by NPC encounters as well as collecting things to solve puzzles.

We will take the elements we find and use them to form logical conclusions about their function and then we experiment to see if our reasoning holds true. I find a crank with a square-shaped end, I go looking for a place to put that, hoping it helps me progress and reveals another aspect of the story to me.

In an adventure game, you're really only going to be rewarded with more story, another item to solve a puzzle with or a "Eureka" moment where you have a new dialog branch open up. In essence, story is the reward here. RPGs would reward you with EXP, money and gear too, but adventure games its a bit more stripped down.

So if story progression is the reward, why are we stripping down that aspect now? Now I can be a total moron, fuck up a little and still be rewarded. How am I supposed to feel as though I won, if this is the case?

If the point is to watch and not worry about winning or experiencing the crush of failure, then just make a movie and be done with it.

I don't thing video games are so complex they need to be stripped down this far. Not even the "casual" games of Wii are this fucking dumb.

Instead of treating gamers and casuals like they're morons, perhaps what's really in order here is market your games correctly rather than water them down. Things like Ace Attorney or Heavy Rain are viable candidates for being advertised with CSI and Law and Order. Hell, they've made CSI and Law and Order games in response to the resurgence of this genre, they seem to know its another way of connecting to their audience - why don't game publishers know that?

The forthcoming Trauma Team for Wii isn't making the kinds of compromises Heavy Rain is, but it's striving to convey the same kind of detective/crime investigation experience, with a dash of ER thrown in.

Going back to RE for a moment. If we take away the zombies and the limited resource management, we've removed a lot of the tension. The world might still be "spooky" but the sense of dread is gone as there's nothing to combat. Now its just talking to people and puzzles. The puzzles could still kill you, but the tension for that is lowered now. So now we just have the satisfaction of progress or a Jill Sandwich.

Take away the threat of the Jill Sandwich and what's left?

A B-movie with a derivative plot and not a very good one.

[Feba]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

How am I supposed to feel as though I won, if this is the case?

This is the basis of your misconception.

There is no reason you should have to feel as though you have won. It iz a wideo game. It iz noot the dewoshun of yoor life.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

There is no reason you should have to feel as though you have won. It iz a wideo game. It iz noot the dewoshun of yoor life.

So I guess watching an episode of Lost would be a game for you, too.

Yes, we don't use video games as resume fodder unless we're in the industry somehow, but in diminishing the medium to make a point, you're proving exactly why I have a problem with Heavy Rain.

It would much rather be a movie, it doesn't want to be compared to "mere" games, but rather, hoist itself up on a pedestal as something different when its just something dumber. Mass Effect 2's big selling point is the story, too, but I don't see it feeling ashamed of being a game to succeed on story merits.

[Feba]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

So I guess watching an episode of Lost would be a game for you, too.

It might be. depends on how you watch it. Certainly wouldn't be a video game, though, since there's no interactivity. But there's a long fucking gap from "The story always has a resolution, you can't really 'game over'" to "IT'S A TV SHOW!".

, but in diminishing the medium to make a point,

I'm not diminishing the medium in the least, I'm putting it in perspective. If you need to get the satisfaction of victory for playing video games to even consider them games at all, I highly recommend you go play NMH and NMH2, they might make you realize just how crazy you are. Video games are incredible things when they're done well, but even then they're still just works of fiction. Calm the fuck down.

[Malacite]

Re: Joystiq Reviews Heavy Rain: Looking Good Folks ^_^

>.> what's with the Chi's sweet home avatar? :D