Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Destructoid - Final Fantasy VII would be 'difficult' to remake

More or less, its the same reason FFXIII has none of the usual towns you might come upon. He says the demands of HD just make it too hard to present the towns as they'd like to in full detail.

To me, that just begs the question that, if that is so difficult, why not just fall back on pre-rendering to make things easier? I think people really just want to see the story and combat sequences get the visual upgrade. And last-gen, there were games like Resident Evil's remake, Baten Kaitos, Devil May Cry and the Devil Summoner games that all made use of pre-rendered backgrounds.

Is it a cardinal sin to use pre-renders? Did MS and Sony outlaw it?

Additionally, I have to wonder the truth to his claim, given that FFXIV looks to sport some pretty big towns. What does the FFXIV team know that Kitase doesn't.

Then again, he's just the writer anyway, so maybe he's just full of shit.

I'd rather have a DS remake of FFV and FFVI anyway, but I'll hold out for a DS2 remake if Nintendo is unveiling the DS2 at GDC.

[Kailea]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

That excuse if BS and everyone knows it ;p Its not that its hard or impossible to do, they just dont want to do it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

Well, has there been anything this generation on the scale of, say, GTA: San Andreas or FFXII?

The more detailed games get, the smaller and shorter they do tend to be. When you're dealing with games with smaller, less defined, less individualized assets, they tend to be a lot bigger.

[Kailea]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

Well, has there been anything this generation on the scale of, say, GTA: San Andreas or FFXII?

The more detailed games get, the smaller and shorter they do tend to be. When you're dealing with games with smaller, less defined, less individualized assets, they tend to be a lot bigger.

You do have a point, but if that is the case, then it seems we have a problem with HD then, and need to look back at what Nintendo is doing, as every game company has been doing for the past 27 years ^.^

[Feba]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

What I don't get is why they don't use this as an excuse to release a PS2-or-slightly-lower quality port on PSP or maybe even DS. It would sell pretty damn well, and they could recycle their old graphics for the most part; just simple things like improving the models while leaving the backgrounds the same and stuff like that. Unfortunately, yeah, it would be hard for FFVII to ever be remade in the full glory consoles can do now with games like MGS or Uncharted; even making a fully 3D Midgar with enough detail to be believable would be very expensive. If anything, maybe that's what they'd have to do, release the game in chapters-- One up to the end of Midgar (or the Nibelhelm flashback), one up to the scene-that-shall-not-be-named, one after Sephiroth summons meteor, etc. It would be very expensive for gamers though, and possibly more likely to fail-- which would leave it as this generation's Shenmue, with a fanbase rabid for completion, and shareholders who could never let that money be spent. Shenmue likely hurt SEGA just as much with pissed off fans as with those who never bought it, that's not something SE wants to get in to. It would also be hard to redesign the overworld. The best case scenario is probably something like getting the absolute bare minimum of the story for $60, and then paying $5 for Vincent, Yuffie, Golden Saucer, WEAPONs, and so on.

We are getting to the point where one of two things has to be compromised on-- length and scope of a game and graphic quality of a game. MGS4's graphics were beautiful, but it works because MGS games are short and linear (in terms of environment, if not gameplay) enough that you can put incredible amounts of focus in to what is there. It also helps that it was one of the most widely anticipated games of the entire decade, probably only exceeded by a very small group of games on PS2, including its predecessors; Kojima can afford to spend more because he knows he's going to make more. Even if you side with the people that think MGS2 was a giant middle finger to his fans because he intentionally wanted to ruin the franchise, it still fueled massive demand for sequels. This difference is going to be most obvious in RPGs. Either we're going to hit a wall in terms of quality or quantity-- not because of a lack of effort on the part of developers any longer, but because humans can only produce high quality artwork so fast, and it takes quite a bit of money to employ another skilled artist for another month, let alone a whole team of them. Plus funding their tools (bit more involved than just photoshop) and so on. This may be why developers have been so afraid to release RPGs on PS360, and why Nintendo is positioning itself so much to inherit the market. The industry got such a massive erection over graphics over the last few generations that it's now hard to put out a game that doesn't awe without being thought of as inferior.

The only real solution for this is to wait for technology advanced enough to create environments on its own while still keeping art direction-- or basically, AI advanced enough that we've probably reached the singularity. At best, we can use programs to automatically generate areas based on already developed assets-- the fact that the real world recycles building designs and natural landscapes is a help--, and then go back and retool those further to fit the game, but that still won't work in areas where you need good level design.

TL;DR -- The FF7 remake is probably going to either be for PS2 or be made by robots.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

Well, its not just Nintendo that positions itself so well, but also companies like Atlus of Valve that do this as well. And while Atlus hasn't gone out and made a big grab at the market, Valve and Nintendo have. And all the while they don't get caught up in this graphical rat race.

Nintendo just releases games witha very broad appeal, but Valve sits back and polishes what they have to a shine and might have cycles that go on longer than even what Nintendo would be comfortable with. And when it comes out, its just a high-quality game with great production values.

Atlus falls in between the two. They can crank out a quality narrative in a short amount of time, they know how to get people in the recording booth and as for the actual games, they feature tons of recycled assets from previous games. Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne was the cornerstone and its assets can be found in every SMT PS2 spin-off.

And I think the DS has proven to SE you don't need a big budget or fancy assets to sell some Dragon Quest games to a new generation of players. DQIX sold over four million, before long its going to have sold twice what the PS2 version did worldwide and they probably spent far less money on that version than DQVIII.

But then we have stuff like Fallout 3 which is a big production with a nice big scope to it. Probably helps that it was designed for expansion in a much more natural way than the likes of Dragon Age or FFXIII. It probably also recycled/cut and paste a lot of things, though.

And obviously, FFXIV is designed for expansion, so things are going to look pretty, but if they want that world to feel huge, there's going to be some lowered polygon usage and recycling assets there.

The only time recycling assets is bothersome is when it is noticeable to such a degree it detracts from the experience. Kinda like how Mount Z in ToA just reminded you too much of Ifrit's Cauldron. And yet. for all the appearences of Jack Frost in SMT games, you just don't care because he's beastiary material, he's not the main attraction in combat or story.

[Cheezeman3000]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

BBQ, I agree with you. Just pre-render the effing backgrounds if it's gonna be so effing hard to render an uninteractive street lamp in 3D. OR, just make all the towns top-view and keep the outside areas as they are in XIII. Just do SOMETHING. They're smart people, I'm sure they can figure it out if they put their minds to it.

[Malacite]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

That's real fucking funny coming from the guys who previously stated that they were so excited about PS3 because it would allow for much more complex weapon designs.

They can't render towns the way they'd like? Bullshit, Uncharted 2 and Modern Warfare 2 say hi.

[Cheezeman3000]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

They can't render towns the way they'd like? Bullshit, Uncharted 2 and Modern Warfare 2 say hi.

Exactly. Has Kitase even seen these games? I'm sure he has... maybe their graphic designers need to take a little vacation time to play through Uncharted 2.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

The graphical obsession is finally coming back to bite them in the ass. All I can say is it's about fucking time. I think we've all seen this brewing for years.

[Mezlo]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

TL;DR -- The FF7 remake is probably going to either be for PS2 or be made by robots.

Thanks for the TL;DR!

I purchased FFVII last night for the PS3 and am going to start tonight! Beat it when it first came out and can't wait to play again!

[Feba]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

They can't render towns the way they'd like? Bullshit, Uncharted 2 and Modern Warfare 2 say hi.

And in those towns there is a huge amount of gameplay. It adds content value. Same with MGS. We're talking about rendering fully detailed towns like this for plot advancement and restocking supplies only. Think about the difference in what you do in towns in Modern Warfare and Final Fantasy. In Modern Warfare, you play the game; in Final Fantasy you're really only there to talk to people, accept quests, maybe a few cutscenes. It's very hard to justify spending tons and tons of money on towns that very few people are going to gain entertainment from. Again, it's a budgetary issue-- if they create one good outdoor area, that could provide players with a half hour of gameplay passing through, or hours if they're on a quest or grind for something. If they create a town, that's not getting nearly as much for players, it's not doing nearly as much to sell the game.

Also keep in mind that a town has a ton of detail compared to, say, a beach. Textures in a town aren't nearly as repeatable, and the topography takes much more care. Not only do you have to have more unique items in a town, you have to have art direction and time spent making buildings. Any good town will also have NPCs wandering around so it feels at least vaguely alive-- these also cost money. Town music, money. Filling the town with stuff that makes going there worthwhile, also money.

[Malacite]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

But that's exactly the point; they don't need to over-glorify the towns, except possibly in the little intro scenes they've been so keen on since FF9. Kitase isn't bitching about money here, but rather time/effort. Yeah, I'm not fucking buying that one bit.

FF14 will have towns, will be in HD, and has been in development for over 5 years now. We all know Kitase loves to blow smoke out of his ass.

[Jei]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

That's great news. Kitase sucks. It's best he stays away from VII remake when it starts. If it starts.

And he has no part in XIV by the way which is also good.

Creating city in 3D means the whole team has to work together. From concept to finish. To make sure the city looks good while also manageable in 3D. Just coming out and says its difficult means the person is a lazy ass who's too lazy to coordinate his team to make it happen. Leave the technical stuff to their team.

Uncharted 2's environments were amazing. Great art direction and great execution.

[DakAttack]

Re: Kitase strikes again - FFVII remake would be hard to remake

Also keep in mind that a town has a ton of detail compared to, say, a beach. Textures in a town aren't nearly as repeatable, and the topography takes much more care.

San d'Oria says hi.