Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

[Feba]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Feba, feel the need to point this out, but Nintendo's first party core titles also tend to enjoy long term sales.

Well, yes, but I'm including those in the casual games category, because they're aimed at the general audience and because so many people give Nintendo shit for toning things down this generation. I know we don't agree with it, but from the larger perspective many people are considering the Wii and Nintendo's first party games to be casual gaming.

Plane and simple, allowing one to start over from right before a battle, without having to do anything yourself, (saving or hitting a check point) is just too simplified, and dumbs down the gaming experience.

So just how much bullshit do you have to go through when you die in order for it to be a proper gaming experience? Do you have to redo the last five minutes? ten? Thirty? I know I've lost well over an hour in some roguelikes by dying right after I finish a dungeon. Should I have to conserve the number of saves I get while I'm playing, so I can't stop too many times without screwing myself over later? Where do you draw the line between being too simple (Restarting the battle when you die is CLEARLY too easy, but how is just going back to a save point and going in again any harder? Why not force you to do the ENTIRE DUNGEON OVER AGAIN like a MAN'S game?) and too hard (You're opposed to deleting save files and permanent character death. Why do you hate realism?)?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

but from the larger perspective many people are considering the Wii and Nintendo's first party games to be casual gaming.

No "buts," that "larger perspective" is nothing more than the mainstream gamer posing as hardcore.

Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Fire Emblem, Advance Wars and the like are core games for the Wii. Madworld, No More Heroes, Muramasa and others as well. Don't even get me started on the DS library, it has a steady flow of core titles.

[Feba]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

No "buts," that "larger perspective" is nothing more than the mainstream gamer posing as hardcore.

Given that we're just making up titles, I'm going to go with the ones that are accepted at large. That's how language works-- people have to agree on what things mean.

[Kailea]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Well, yes, but I'm including those in the casual games category, because they're aimed at the general audience and because so many people give Nintendo shit for toning things down this generation. I know we don't agree with it, but from the larger perspective many people are considering the Wii and Nintendo's first party games to be casual gaming.



So just how much bullshit do you have to go through when you die in order for it to be a proper gaming experience? Do you have to redo the last five minutes? ten? Thirty? I know I've lost well over an hour in some roguelikes by dying right after I finish a dungeon. Should I have to conserve the number of saves I get while I'm playing, so I can't stop too many times without screwing myself over later? Where do you draw the line between being too simple (Restarting the battle when you die is CLEARLY too easy, but how is just going back to a save point and going in again any harder? Why not force you to do the ENTIRE DUNGEON OVER AGAIN like a MAN'S game?) and too hard (You're opposed to deleting save files and permanent character death. Why do you hate realism?)?

nice job in taking what I say and blowing it way out of proportion....

Save as much as you want, its there, use it, but its not the games job to pat you on the back and sit you right before a battle you just lost. If you dont loose anything when you fail (EXP, progression, items, time....something) then what have you learned? nothing.

[Feba]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

nice job in taking what I say and blowing it way out of proportion....

No, I'm saying you need to decide what the fucking deal is with death. Either you die, and it's game over, try again; or you die, and you have to try again. You say the second one is too easy, and now you're saying the first one is "out of proportion". So what does Kailea think is the absolutely perfect way to build a game so that it's not going overboard, but not coddling people; and how is that any better than either extreme?

If you dont loose anything when you fail (EXP, progression, items, time....something) then what have you learned?

You always fucking lose time when you die. The punishment for dying in a video game? Dying in the game. Why does the player need to be unduly hassled with loading games as a form of punishment? We're not talking about MMOs here, so EXP and Item loss is pretty silly, since dying is game over in offline games. That leaves time-- as Armando explained, dying in an RPG pretty much means boss fights or you did something stupid-- if it's a boss fight, you probably just saved, and now have to go back to the title screen, select the file, load, reenter the battle, skip the cutscene, and then start over from the beginning. What's wrong with skipping the part from 'title screen' to 'start over'? If it's not a boss fight, and you just did something stupid, chances are you learned your lesson from dying.

For that matter, since you seem to think people need to be punished when they fail a game, let's say Hideo Kojima got his dream of putting electric shock controllers in his games. Would it be fair for a game to give you an easy option to restart a battle so long as the player endured a painful shock? Surely physical pain is even better than having to deal with annoying and time wasting restarts. Since none of us are intelligent to learn how to play vidja games without being made to suffer so that we know we made a mistake, a direct physical response would surely be even better, as you wouldn't be able to get up and go to the bathroom while you wait for it to load!

But seriously-- if restarting a battle makes the game 'too easy', why should we allow save points at all? You have to draw the line somewhere, why is a save point right before the battle just fine for difficulty, but allowing you to replay the battle absolutely dumbing things down?

[Coinspinner]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Citing roguelikes and then saying its OK for Final Fantasy to get away with eliminating just a tiny bit of retread is just a little weird to me. However long the length between the boss fight and where I last saved, I have an opportunity to go over that fight in my head and observe what skills I have and what I might need to do better.

I mention roguelikes because they are at the far end of the spectrum for risk in a video game. That's what that genre is all about. But FF games aren't roguelikes. FF has been moving in this direction for over a decade, so I feel the way the game handles losing to be a reasonable design and consistent with the evolution of the series.

Regardless of which side you are on, everyone has to admit that games have gotten easier.

Sure. Most of the notorious NES-era difficulty was due to poor design, and the industry has learned a lot in the years. RPGs in particular are better balanced and better thought out than Famicom/NES RPGs. The more fair forms of challenge have been preserved, but not every game these days is made to be hard.

that's not what he meant and you know it -.- people need to stop over exaggerating others responses -.-

Plane and simple, allowing one to start over from right before a battle, without having to do anything yourself, (saving or hitting a check point) is just too simplified, and dumbs down the gaming experience.

We all mastered saving at the first save point. There is no additional challenge to be had from that mechanic. :p

There are checkpoints in FFXIII. They are placed right before each battle. It's the first* FF on a platform where you can expect there to be a a hard disk, so naturally they are going to experiment with the save system a little. I'd honestly prefer to never need to save manually, and only do it if I want to create a backup or secondary save.

*Excluding MMOs, PC ports, and spin offs naturally.

[Kailea]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

No, I'm saying you need to decide what the fucking deal is with death. Either you die, and it's game over, try again; or you die, and you have to try again. You say the second one is too easy, and now you're saying the first one is "out of proportion". So what does Kailea think is the absolutely perfect way to build a game so that it's not going overboard, but not coddling people; and how is that any better than either extreme?

The hell are you talking about? I know my place -.-

Die, get game over and have to start from your last save (this is perfectly fine you lost, learned from the experiance and have to get back to the boss, in some RPGs its much easier to do this then others depending on where the save point is)

Die, and start right back before the fight you died on (this is to pampering, you dont have to go back to your last save, you dont have to worry about dieing in the battle, you just keep doing your thing till you win)

[Malacite]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Save as much as you want, its there, use it, but its not the games job to pat you on the back and sit you right before a battle you just lost. If you dont loose anything when you fail (EXP, progression, items, time....something) then what have you learned? nothing.

Not necessarily. You learned that you clearly did something wrong and now have to figure out how to correct that.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

View game over screen.
View title screen, select "Load Game".
Choose last save, watch progress bar.
Jog back to boss fight.
Skip cutscene. (Maybe.)

What is there to learn? It's just time wasting. Either way, I can't progress till I win the fight. Either way, I'm going to consider the boss' abilities and come up with tactics to counter them.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Given that we're just making up titles, I'm going to go with the ones that are accepted at large. That's how language works-- people have to agree on what things mean.

And when everyone starts jumping off a cliff, I'm sure you'll join in.

Lots of people agree that the second they get out of work or school and come home, that they should be allowed to come home, log on to a forum and just plain forget grammar and spelling. They just want to "relax" and "have fun" but look like idiots doing it.

Some girls agree that typing things out in pink is cute. I think its fucking annoying and it makes my eyeballs bleed.

Just because some people agree on something doesn't mean they're right.

[Armando]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Lots of people agree that the second they get out of work or school and come home, that they should be allowed to come home, log on to a forum and just plain forget grammar and spelling. They just want to "relax" and "have fun" but look like idiots doing it.

Some girls agree that typing things out in pink is cute. I think its fucking annoying and it makes my eyeballs bleed.

Just because some people agree on something doesn't mean they're right.

It doesn't matter if you type it "CORE GAME," "c0r3 g4m3" or "core game", they're all different ways to refer to the same concept. But if what you mean by "core titles" and what feba means by "core titles" is different you can't communicate, pink font or otherwise.

I mean it's not even like there's a real authority on these definitions. What you call a hardcore gamer, I could just as easily decide to label a power gamer, and then say that a hardcore gamer is something else. But getting nitpicky about that won't further the discussion.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

I mean it's not even like there's a real authority on these definitions. What you call a hardcore gamer, I could just as easily decide to label a power gamer, and then say that a hardcore gamer is something else. But getting nitpicky about that won't further the discussion.

OK, explain this one then. NSMB Wii has been out only a couple weeks longer than Final Fantasy XIII, but continues to outsell it. After four weeks, FFXIII isn't even in the top ten on Japan's sales charts, but you can't get NSMB Wii out of the top 3. Even if we remove western sales, its still beating a lot of "hardcore" games on JP sales charts alone.

And Mario is indeed hanging with the big boys in the west.

That's not because Mario is "casual," its because Mario has sound game design that everyone knows, loves, enjoys or wants to learn. Its not too easy or too insanely hard. Its just a good game, that's why its still selling weeks after other games have met their sales goals or had less satisfactory results.

The only reason people are calling it "casual" is because they want to discredit Nintendo's success and still feel their PS3 or 360 is the real winner. People are free to like what they want, but its sad to see such a large portion of the community just live in denial. Its not healthy.

The real truth about Nintedo - and what people really resent about them - is that Nintendo does not play a role in the silly arms race of graphic power and online play. Nintendo will not jump in and be an early adopter, they will not take needless risks for the sake of pushing the industry forward.

Instead, they have looked beyond the core gamer and expanded their audience. They make tons more money back on far smaller investments. And the companies that really succeed in this industry of late do the exact same thing.

I mean, what does Valve do? They really only have like three game franchises to their names and now they're the kings of PC digital distribution, too. These guys got a lot of industry power now, considering how little they do in terms of putting out games. And yet, look how long those games have endured.

[Feba]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

That's not because Mario is "casual,"

Yes, effectively, it is. Mario appeals to hardcore gamers, but it also definitely keeps itself open to kids, newcomers, and those who don't play games often. That doesn't make it bad, it's just not aimed at people that play games because they love games and only those chosen few. Or in other words, they have looked beyond the core gamer and expanded their audience.

OK, explain this one then. NSMB Wii has been out only a couple weeks longer than Final Fantasy XIII, but continues to outsell it.

The entire point of this discussion was that the idea that the 'hardcore market' drives the market was wrong. Casual games, games which are not incredibly hard, games which don't aim themselves at just gamers, have always been where the industry makes most of its money.

Honestly BBQ, I'm pretty sure you agree with everything I'm saying, except for the terms 'hardcore' and 'casual'.

you just keep doing your thing till you win

How does a save system keep you from doing this? It takes more time out of your day. Explain how not being able to restart the battle immediately 'teaches' you anything, clearly. Explain how being able to encourages you to continue doing the exact same thing over and over. Explain what makes one 'pampering', and the other good game design.

[Malacite]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

I resent Nintendo because we maybe get a couple of 1st party IP a year at best and then the rest of the shit on Wii is shovelware, save perhaps for the odd gem like No More Heroes.

To me, it's like they could care less about the loyal fan base so long as they can milk the Wii & DS for sales of games people will stupidly buy and only play every now and then. Maybe I'm just jaded, but every single game I've gotten for my Wii just hasn't had any lasting appeal for me and that's pissing me the hell off.

I get all kinds of mileage out of my PS3 & 360, and to a lesser extent my PSP (hell I even play my DS more frequently than my Wii). Smash Bros got old fast, as did Mario Kart and my other games (Galaxy, Prime 3 and Zelda) are maybe nice to revisit say, 4~6 months later but otherwise meh.

Basically, if you don't have a big family or a lot of friends, Wii is pretty boring at least for me and that's what's got me down. I more or less have to go to my PS3 or 360 for any kind of lasting appeal since the majority of Wii games in my experience have been play it once, have a lot of fun, and then never touch it again. I'd trade it in but for some reason I just can't seem to bring myself to do it; some nagging feeling in the back of my head says to wait it out but Nintendo's not giving me much encouragement.

Oh well... at least Metroid: Other M is out this year.

[DakAttack]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

The real truth about Nintedo - and what people really resent about them - is that Nintendo does not play a role in the silly arms race of graphic power and online play. Nintendo will not jump in and be an early adopter, they will not take needless risks for the sake of pushing the industry forward.

Instead, they have looked beyond the core gamer and expanded their audience. They make tons more money back on far smaller investments. And the companies that really succeed in this industry of late do the exact same thing.

They couldn't push the industry forward if they tried, they live in the past. They're wringing out every penny they possibly can from their popular characters. Look at Sonic now, so lonely and unnoticed. Mario, Link, Samus, and the rest will eventually head in the same direction. I'm surprised an Italian plumber could remain iconic for so fucking long.

Nintendo caters to children. I grew up with Nintendo, and they haven't changed. Sure, something for adults comes out every now and then, but not enough to consider the Wii anything more than a toy. The last time I looked at a Zelda game, every character looked like a child. Pokemon has always been the same way, it's a game about children catching and training cute wildlife. It was fun when I was a kid, but I grew up and I can't identify with child-like characters anymore. How can any adult?