Peta has a game for you!

[Balfree]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

Life would be terrible if we only did things that we absolutely needed.

For example, no one really needs to be here right now.

Specially not me, its late and I'm sleepy, bye.

[Feba]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

Yes and we don't NEED cars. We don't NEED electricity too.

Big difference. Non-animal based sources of nutrition work almost if not just as well, depending on whose diet you look at, and whether you take supplements of any kind. You're looking more at the difference between, say, petrol and diesel or electric cars, not abolishing cars altogether. The difference between coal and nuclear power, not abolishing electrical appliances altogether.

Eating animal products does not really improve life, either in terms of pure enjoyment, or in terms of health and survival. The biggest impact is taste, and there are tons of perfectly tasty vegetarian and vegan dishes out there.

We've been doing it since the dawn of time so to say its needless is asinine.

Which is just another way of saying "never question the status quo". The same could be said to any change ever. As you've said, we've survived since the dawn of time without cars and electricity. They're a very recent invention. But giving them up for the sake of tradition would be asinine, as would giving up a number of other technological (industry, computers) and societal (human rights, such as the end of legal slavery, and women's suffrage) improvements.

Saying that we've always done something one way, thus it is a thing we need to do, is simply flawed. There's a certain snack food (crackers) which I always eat in the same way (bite it into a rectangle, and then eat that), but I don't need to do it that way in order to gain the benefits of nutrition, or even taste. It's just how I eat it. In fact, in the grand scheme, looking at it in terms of efficiency, it would probably be better if I stopped doing that.

Yes, we could sustain ourselves without it but there isn't really a need to.

A NEED? Possibly not. But there are huge improvements from it. The biggest one being the huge help it could be to the environment, economy, and world hunger. To be brief, to raise a single animal to slaughter consumes a huge amount of energy-- all of the care and energy requirements the animals require, of course, but very substantially, the food they eat. Imagine you give a cow an ear of corn. That ear of corn is going to wind up contributing to a very small amount of kcal by the time the cow is made into meat and eaten by a person. On the other hand, if you give that ear of corn to a person, you've saved the energy of slaughtering and processing the cow, in addition to huge multipliers on the amount of nutrition gained.

And that's not considering the contributions of factory farms to environmental pollution.

Not raising animals would result in much more food for everyone-- not only by food not being spent to keep other food alive, but also by opening up new farmland and capital.

So what you're saying is like "we could sustain ourselves without cigarettes, but there isn't a need to.". You're right technically, there isn't a need to, but it's better for everyone if we do.

[Armando]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

I was going to make a longer post but Feba addressed most of the things I was going to address before I finished my post.

Aside from what he said, a problem with using "we've been doing it since the dawn of time" as an argument is that we've also been killing, lying, cheating, and discriminating against other people since the dawn of time as well. That's not much justification for anything. Granted, back then eating meat was necessary, but these days it's not. Also, the problem with saying "We don't need cars and electricity either" is that it leaves out the most important detail: you don't really have to kill or harm living things to get those.

How much animals can think, feel, or understand; whether animals have souls or not (if you believe in the notion of souls anyways); whether we have the right to make use of animals in any way we see fit. Those are all gray areas, and depending on the stance you take with those subjects, killing animals for meat regardless of the circumstance may or may not be justified. If you think it's justified, I don't blame you. I can see where you're coming from, and there's nothing I could say to prove it isn't anyways. That's what you believe and I respect that.

For me the choice is simple: it doesn't cost me anything not to eat meat. I would gladly not eat meat if it meant animals don't have to be mass-bred and mass-slaughtered for food. Maybe they really can't suffer as much as we do or whatever and ultimately it didn't matter. Right now we don't know that for sure. Being vegetarian isn't much of a sacrifice to me it won't harm anyone so why not?

(Of course, it's easy for me because I've never eaten meat. It wouldn't be so easy for someone else.)

Then don't start the discussion.

Whoah there, don't misunderstand. You came on a bit strong there, saying the rationality behind not eating meat was dumb. I was just pointing out that I've been over this dozens of times. I actually enjoy these discussions, I was just giving out the warning that my position probably won't change.

EDIT: Also, Feba, you brought up a pretty good point there about us having more food if we didn't have to raise animals for meat. I never really looked at it that way.

[Mhurron]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

Big difference. Non-animal based sources of nutrition work almost if not just as well, depending on whose diet you look at, and whether you take supplements of any kind.

Yes, it works just as well, as long as you fill all the holes in it where it doesn't.

Eating animal products does not really improve life

Oh yes it does. If you enjoy the taste, there are few simple pleasures in life that transcend eating good food. You might not enjoy it, but I do and so do billions of my fellow man, now and throughout human history.

[Armando]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

I can't really tell if you're being sarcastic or not lol.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

With Mhurron, assume both.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

Whoah there, don't misunderstand. You came on a bit strong there, saying the rationality behind not eating meat was dumb. I was just pointing out that I've been over this dozens of times. I actually enjoy these discussions, I was just giving out the warning that my position probably won't change.

No, you started the discussion by saying eating meat was needless. It's not. We NEED to eat in order to survive. Its one of the basic things in life. Some people CHOOSE not to eat meat and more power to them but to say its needless for others is an insult. If you throw down the gauntlet, don't be surprised if someone picks it up.

[Firewind]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

That game was both disturbing and hilarious. If PETA honestly think that plucking and stuffing a Turkey produces that much blood and gore they're more delusional than I thought. Besides if you're dumb enough not to bleed an animal before gutting it you're pretty much asking to get poisoned as well as catch some nasty diseases.

It's funny to see how quickly this thread fell from a discussion of PETA's appalling ethics to the whole Vegetarian debate. There are 4 things that will never have people come to an agreeable conclusion: Religion, Music, Politics and Diet. You can guarantee that people will get offended and the debate will have gotten nowhere by the end of it. It's why I can rarely be bothered to get into the debates and usually just satirise the subjects instead since it's much more entertaining.

It's hilarious that most people forget that Humans are omnivores and so can eat whatever they like as long as it can be digested and metabolised safely. Since the dawn of time humans ate fruit, nuts, berries and whatever meat and fish they could catch. As long as you're not being a total idiot and completely cutting proteins from your diet (it's pretty easy to get them from nuts, milk, eggs and pulses without having to blow a ton of cash on supplements) there really isn't any downside to not eating meat. Just as there are benefits and absolutely no drawbacks from eating meat as part of a balanced diet. It's the people who insist on only eating one type of food who are putting their health at risk.

[Armando]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

No, you started the discussion by saying eating meat was needless. It's not. We NEED to eat in order to survive. Its one of the basic things in life. Some people CHOOSE not to eat meat and more power to them but to say its needless for others is an insult. If you throw down the gauntlet, don't be surprised if someone picks it up.

I was just trying to point out that a person can stay alive and healthy without ever eating meat. If what I said rubbed you the wrong way or I worded it wrong, I apologize; I didn't really think there was any potential for what I said to be offensive.

EDIT: Also, I never knew "pulse" was another word for "legume."

[Caspian]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

Out of curiosity, Armando, you said you had never had meat before. Were your parents Hindu or was it just a personal choice for them? (Worked with a guy who had never had meat because of religious reasons, neither he nor his entire family ate meat. Though I remember him saying even eggs were iffy, particularly when there was a cake for someone's birthday.)

[Armando]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

I think you're the first person that's asked me that. Well, yes and no. My mother was brought up with Catholic beliefs. She became vegetarian when she was 16 if I remember correctly. It was purely a personal choice; her parents were against the idea. She just never gave it much thought before then, and one day it kind of hit her that she was eating animals and decided she didn't want that.

On the other hand she was later exposed to some hindu beliefs that she agrees with. So I guess you could say my mom's a little bit hindu. But she wasn't brought up that way nor are we of indian descent or anything like that. Just kind of a coincidence, really.

My dad just kind of followed suit after they got married.

[Kailea]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

to restate......
PETA are a bunch of morons
You NEED meat (if you choose not to, alot of the time you have to use supplements)
its a CHOICE to not eat meat
Saying meat is needless is an insult to meat eaters
Also being hostile towards someone because they don't agree with you is stupid


I eat meat, I enjoy it's taste, I respect others that don't eat it, but try and make me feel bad about eating it, or try and talk me into no eating it.
(have this one guy that I know that does this, and it pisses me off)

[Armando]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

(if you choose not to, alot of the time you have to use supplements)

Like Firewind said, that's not really true. From Wikipedia, because I'm too lazy to do real research.

Protein

Protein intake in vegetarian and vegan diets is only slightly lower than in meat diets and can meet daily requirements for any person, including athletes and bodybuilders.[47] Studies by Harvard University as well as other studies conducted in the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and various European countries, have confirmed that vegetarian diets provide more than sufficient protein intake as long as a variety of plant sources are available and consumed.[48] Proteins are composed of amino acids, and a common concern with protein acquired from vegetable sources is an adequate intake of the "essential amino acids", which cannot be synthesised by the human body. While dairy and egg products provide complete sources for lacto-ovo vegetarians, the only vegetable sources with significant amounts of all eight types of essential amino acids are lupin, soy, hempseed, chia seed, amaranth, buckwheat and quinoa. It is not necessary, however, to obtain protein from these sources — the essential amino acids can also be obtained by eating a variety of complementary plant sources that, in combination, provide all eight essential amino acids (e.g. brown rice and beans, or hummus and whole wheat pita, though protein combining in the same meal is not necessary). A varied intake of such sources can be adequate.[49]

Good thing rice and beans are a staple of any Puertorican's diet. I've never had to take any protein supplements. I have pretty poor nutrition/fitness knowledge but I've never had any problems increasing my strength the few times in my life I've done weight training, if that's any indication.

[Feba]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

Oh yes it does. If you enjoy the taste, there are few simple pleasures in life that transcend eating good food

There's plenty of good food to be made without meat.

Some people CHOOSE not to eat meat and more power to them but to say its needless for others is an insult.

Again, this is like saying you NEED to use an antique sword to open your mail. There are plenty of other ways to do it, which are far more sensible.

You NEED meat

With the exception of the stuff on your bones, no, you don't. If you need anything IN meat, it can be provided through other means.

Saying meat is needless is an insult to meat eaters

Bullshit. There are plenty of things that are needless. Soda is needless. Beer is needless. Drugs are needless. Junk food is needless. Video games are needless. Movies are needless.

Being NEEDLESS doesn't mean something is BAD. There can be bad things that are needless, but not all of them are. If I said "You don't need to drink soda to live", you wouldn't say "I'm insulted! I drink soda every day, and so does the rest of my family... we've been drinking soda for generations!", you'd say "Yeah, but I like it". Which is the reason most people still choose to eat meat. It doesn't make you a bad person, and it's not insulting. It's just a statement.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Peta has a game for you!

And this is all where vegans and vegitarians start to sound like athiests. Really, you may as well be speaking gibberish. I've been on the dietary roller coaster this last year and while, yes, you can just take supplements there can be things in those that are bad for you, too. Not everyone's body reacts the same way to the same stuff.

Hard to avoid things like soy when they're in every damn thing you touch, including the vitamin supplements.

Its not hard to work with other people's dietary needs if you sit down with them, its only only hard when they go and make it political. Like I could always split a pinapple pizza with this one vegetarian chick since she was the only vegetarian in the student club, but then there was this dude that would then make a fuss about someone at Domino's giving money to a pro-life organization. I would tell him to just fucking shut it, eat the damn pineapple pizza or starve.

And he'd actually not eat it. So that was like half a pizza for me and half for the vegetarian chick. Win.