Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I had heard a Star Trek MMO was in the works from a friend who had a copy of the new Game Informer, so I ran a search when I got home about it and found the official site.

When I was thinking about it, there was just such a vast potential for how it could be done and also for roleplay. I'm not much for roleplay in FFXI since its a self-contained FF like many, no real consistancy in culture and we're still learning about much of it. Star Trek, on the other hand, is quite established in that regard.

I had daydreams of being a cranky doctor, a Vulcan engineeer or a Klingon science officer, but alas all hopes of that were dashed when I read the following words:

"Everyone is a captain."

You happen to be the entire crew as well

Talk about blowing it, hell, they "Jump-to-Lightspeed"ed it. Granted you don't start out with a big vessel, maybe just a dippy small ship, but you're always the captain and crew. They try to play it off with the classes they have available playing a role in how you'll act as a captain, but c'mon, Star Trek isn't only about the captains. We have MMOs out there where people do have to cooperate in a bigger group to coordinate things on a Star Trek-ish kind of scale, why couldn't Star Trek do it?

To be fair, though, I think this MMO would be able to identify and eliminate RMTs more quickly than most of the others out there. See, in Star Trek, the Federation has done away with money and the Klingon Empire isn't interested in currency either, just resources, so its a barter-and-trade system, as well as a reputation system. RMTs who wanted to manipulate the resources of a particular planet outside of the Neutral Zone would have to advertise in game and they'd be found out for it rather quickly. When that happens, hopefully GMs would would take out thier ability to refuse PvP so angry players can unleash photon torpedos on the fuckers.

You can be many of the known races or even make up one of your own with the character creator, but really, if I'm mostly just going to be seeing the outer hull of the ship, it doesn't really matter what race I am.

The setting is 40 years after the TNG era of Trek and the Klingon and Federation are at odds once more. New races under the rule of the Klingon Empire, such as the Nausicans, so yeah just as pleasant as WoW's Horde. And yeah, there's also the Borg out there, but you can't play as them.

But yeah, this reeks of the mistakes SoE made with SWG. Everyone can be a Jedi, even when there's not really supposed to be any and can have a Millenium Falcon even if its supposed to be hard to get one. ST:O reeks of similar design stupidity, except it will be Jump to Lightspeed from the start rather than dumbed down via an expansion.

[Nuriko]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

I actually liked Jump to Lightspeed, it was a real change of pace from the ground game, but far from required. I even went so far as to get all 9 aces ... it was just too bad how they mangled things with the NGE, though even the CU(/R/B) put me off crafting in that game...

[Feba]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

The problem with having classes is that everyone would get to Captain as soon as possible, that's what people want to be. There are a few people out there that want to be bounty hunters, a few want to be stormtroopers, but practically everyone is going to want to be a fucking Jedi. Either everyone (or if you make it like relic, almost everyone) is pissed off that they CAN'T captain a ship, or everybody is a captain and you screw realism. Having tons of captains is far more realistic than having tons of jedis, though.

This is why I liked EVE, though. There was a perfectly valid reason why you were able to have a ship and control everything at the touch of a button-- you were one of the lucky rich bastards who was able to get himself put in a life sustaining pod. For that matter, there were rather detailed explanations for everything from respawning (You have clones sitting around as backups. Before you're killed, your neural images are transmitted to it, and you "wake up" there. IIRC, when your pod is critically damaged (zero HP) it decides to do this, and kills the body you leave behind with some form of injections) to zoning (the warp gate construction and requirements are explained. I don't remember the details, but it's stuff involving using the gravity of stars and so on). Which was a nice break from FFXI, where respawning was a completely nonsensical game mechanic, and zoning (sometimes involving unexplainable bits of land, such as the whole of the Ronfaure -> Plateau -> Dunes -> Highlands -> Gustaburg route) completely ignored. It wouldn't even be too hard to explain what's happening with those, either.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

The problem with having classes is that everyone would get to Captain as soon as possible, that's what people want to be. There are a few people out there that want to be bounty hunters, a few want to be stormtroopers, but practically everyone is going to want to be a fucking Jedi. Either everyone (or if you make it like relic, almost everyone) is pissed off that they CAN'T captain a ship, or everybody is a captain and you screw realism. Having tons of captains is far more realistic than having tons of jedis, though.

See, though, it could have been a lot more than just wanting to be a captain. Not everyone wants to be the captain of a starship. There are space stations, outposts on planets in Star Trek as well. A First Officer or Commander has a lot of power as well.

SWG made Jedis this really chance and hard thing to become at first and then they turn around and just give in and let everyone be Jedis, which makes no sense. It will work in the KOTOR MMO because there are supposed to be Jedi in that era, but not in the era of SWG.

Honestly, no one I knew wanted to be Luke Skywalker as a kid, we wanted to be Han Solo because he had the cool ship, the blaster and he got the girl. Luke got a dead dad, two annoying droids, a light saber, hokey space magic and found out said girl was his sister. Who won that scenario?

This is why I liked EVE, though. There was a perfectly valid reason why you were able to have a ship and control everything at the touch of a button-- you were one of the lucky rich bastards who was able to get himself put in a life sustaining pod. For that matter, there were rather detailed explanations for everything from respawning (You have clones sitting around as backups. Before you're killed, your neural images are transmitted to it, and you "wake up" there. IIRC, when your pod is critically damaged (zero HP) it decides to do this, and kills the body you leave behind with some form of injections) to zoning (the warp gate construction and requirements are explained. I don't remember the details, but it's stuff involving using the gravity of stars and so on). Which was a nice break from FFXI, where respawning was a completely nonsensical game mechanic, and zoning (sometimes involving unexplainable bits of land, such as the whole of the Ronfaure -> Plateau -> Dunes -> Highlands -> Gustaburg route) completely ignored. It wouldn't even be too hard to explain what's happening with those, either.

So you can buy clones and neuro back-ups, but binding your body and soul to a crystal is a stretch for you. If we're going by this logic of things being explained to us, then the plot mechanic of killing Aeris in FFVII makes no sense. Phoenix Downs raise dead people, she died. All better. But no, the plot says she's dead for good.

Spiderman has been rebooted twice in the last ten years. God, I wish they would explain that one to me.

Bit by a radioactive spider, becomes spiderman in high school, meets MJ, Norman Osborne becomes Green Goblen, dies, college, Pete dates Gwen Stacy, she dies, moves on to MJ, they get married, Clone Saga. Peter Parker was never Peter Parker, he was clone.

Reboot.

Bit by a radioactive spider, becomes spiderman in high school, meets MJ, Norman Osborne becomes Green Goblen, dies, college, Pete dates Gwen Stacy, she dies, moves on to MJ, they get married, Epic confrontation with Kingpin.

Reboot.

Bit my a radioactive spider, becomes spiderman, this time we skip straight to college.

In other adventures:

Spiderman: Hi, I'm Spiderman.
Wolverine: I know that, bub. We've teamed up before.
Spiderman: We have? I think I'd remember someone this stocky and unkempt. Who are you again?
Wolverine: I'm Wolverine, dumbass. You know, adamantium skeleton, nifty claws, healing factor, real name's Logan.
Spiderman: Nope, none of this rings a bell. Are you with the Avengers? You must be fun at parties when they need a canopener.
Wolverine: For fuck's sake man, you hit your head or something? I'm with the X-men, How do you not know this shit?

See, this is where you just kick in your complete suspension of disbelief. Final Fantasy has crystals, you bind yourself to crystals. Doesn't even really matter what they're called. Materia, Magicite, Nethicite, Draw Points or Spheres - it all comes from and revolves around crystals. They just have power and we want them, want to destroy them or just keep evil people from messing with them.

Spiderman just reboots and all the other Marvel heros just act like nothing happened and they always knew him, whichever him it is.

DC actually tries to explain this kind of shit and sometimes ends up making things worse than better. Joker blows up Robin #2, he's quite dead. Superboy Prime (of the Prime universe), punches the barriers of reality and destroys them and oh look, Jason Todd is back from the dead mad at Batman because he didn't avenge his murder at the hands of the Joker.

Easier just to leave him dead, I think.

Shadow of the Empire. Oh this one's fun. Palpantine can clone himself, so all that trouble Vader took to kill him and go good at the end was in vain. Not to mention it goes against the whole way the Sith rank up. He's supposed to want to be slain and someone assume his place eventually. Cheater!

Anyway, again, sometimes you just completely suspend disbelief. Jeuno is off in the distance, you don't actually cross the bridge to get there, you just assume that's what you did while you zoned and whatever's chasing you just goes "Shit, I'm not going in there."

Everyone being a captain, well, that's just where I draw the line. Everyone could be a COR, but they're not because a lot of people don't like spending gil. I'm OK with spending the gil.

Maybe I just prefer the distinction of some things needing the be unique.

[Feba]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

So you can buy clones and neuro back-ups, but binding your body and soul to a crystal is a stretch for you.

It's not that it's a stretch nearly so much as it is that NO explanation is provided. Vana'diel is obviously full of magic, there's nothing wrong with that. But there's nothing to explain how Home Points work. Nothing to explain how you can make a CHOICE to return or wait for a Raise when you're supposed to be unconcious. Nothing to explain why you are forced back after some time, or how the home point knows you've died at all.

And yes, I agree that Phoenix Downs are awful from a storyline standpoint. When they're changed to KO instead of death, that's a big improvement. Like you bring up with Spiderman, though, once you can always clone another one, what's the point of worrying about death?

This is the great thing about EVE's excuse-- you literally can always clone another one, but you have significant losses due to death in the form of the ISK you put into your ship and basically everything in it, as well as having to buy a new clone if you get pod killed (you don't HAVE to buy a new one, the "Basic" clone is always there, but you can be deleveled badly for going for an underfunded clone.). It makes sense, and actually helps the plot instead of taking away from it.

Also, not that anyone cares, but concerning the whole "zone" issue, I would like to see a huge world (single shard, of course. Not life size, but definitely the point where walking around feels like a journey), with various teleportation points throughout (similar to FFXII's teleport system). Zone lines exist, but not in the "loading screen" perspective, but more like the way GTA handles it. Possibly with an introduction cutscene whenever you enter a new area (ala kingdom hearts, I believe Zelda). Make exploring for the sake of exploring interesting. Make it easy and quick to get to places you've been to before, but make opening the game up a journey. Make teleportation cheap, but not free. Make ships and aircraft and such important. Really, how many of us took the ride to Aht Urghan more times than it took us to get an Olduum ring, and maybe set HP there? Make those things not only the main way of getting around (Airship passes are stupid, sell tickets to everyone, with some people getting special treatment or airfare provided by a sponsor, be it one of the big three, Jeuno, or some smaller business (think mercenaries)) without teleporting, but make them journeys. Not just a place to stand around, maybe fight a monster, and fish. Offer entertainment (NPCs) on ships; hell, it would be easy enough to do that now. replace the cargo hold with a stage, put random NPCs up there, and have them do a comedy routine in /say. Like the rafts, but not shit. Maybe offer a casino. Make them places to be as well as ways to go.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

Also, not that anyone cares, but concerning the whole "zone" issue, I would like to see a huge world (single shard, of course. Not life size, but definitely the point where walking around feels like a journey), with various teleportation points throughout (similar to FFXII's teleport system). Zone lines exist, but not in the "loading screen" perspective, but more like the way GTA handles it.

One of your biggest complaints about FFXI are graphics and lack of graphical updates. At the time FFXI came out (and this is still true in next gen games to an extent), the more seamless you make a world, the more corners you have to cut to make it work. Character models become less individualized, animations are more limited, art direction takes a huge hit, textures and landscapes are less defined.

SE wanted thier zones to look like real places rather than a series of dulled textures, the more detailed you want to get, the more likely you're going to need loading screens.

I've played the seamless MMO before, its a nice thought, but we're still a ways from making it feel natural.

Possibly with an introduction cutscene whenever you enter a new area (ala kingdom hearts, I believe Zelda).

Yes, Zelda does it. Its flavoring, but not much else.

Make exploring for the sake of exploring interesting.

There are people who like exploration in games and there are people that don't. One of the aspects of Zelda, Dragon Quest, Metroid or Final Fantasy is exploration. I love it, but I can't make other people want to explore. There will always be people who will wait and let people like me do all the work of exploring, updating wikis, writing guides or making forum posts so they don't have to do any exploring or even thinking.

Exploration usually means ignoring the guide, which means risk, which means possible death. People in FFXI have kittens if they lose a tiny sliver of EXP, even though EXP loss is a joke now compared to what it used to be.

I went out and explored Grauberg, Fort Karugo-Narugo and other new zones the earliest I could, I've seen more of some of the CoP zones as a BST than many players would want to. BSTs go to places that make RDMs shit thier pants.

Make it easy and quick to get to places you've been to before, but make opening the game up a journey. Make teleportation cheap, but not free. Make ships and aircraft and such important. Really, how many of us took the ride to Aht Urghan more times than it took us to get an Olduum ring, and maybe set HP there?

I got the Olduum Ring as early as I could, raised my first chocobo as soon as I could. Getting to Aht'Urghan was easy for me and I hadn't really even levelled a mage job yet. SE wants your teleports, travel options and so on to all be part of the game, but again, there are people who just want this shit handed to them and then there are the people that work toward it with no complaint.

Also, you forget that everything you put in an MMO in regards to quests, travel or economy has to come packed with an RMT countermeasure. They have to discourage it within the design of the game. You don't want a gaggle of RMT gathering in one city, Level Syncing and getting access to money quickly. At the same time, you also want to control the flow of the player population to keep places from lagging so such.

SE wants to make transportation part of the game, they want you to work for it. I'll concede not all initial decisions made with things like regional teleports were perfect, but those of us that did the quests instead of being nagged by friends to do them or waiting for SE to make it easier had no problems getting around.

I'd love to have my own ship, but if SE doesn't put some kind of requirements on that, what you'll have within days are large fishing crews of RMT that are now no longer restricted by boat schedules and routes.

I've raised two characters, I've done most of the stuff in FFXI more than once and have zero trouble getting around. I didn't have many problems before the various updates, but I'm well-aware that the larger you make the game, the more options you have to add. I have all the options at my disposal.

[Ziero]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

This topic is lolworthy

First off, in the Star Trek universe there are countless captains. They don't all have to be in charge of a federation flag ship to own a ship. Both Kirk and Picard captained ships before the Enterprise, so I don't see that as being a big deal. As long as everyone doesn't start off with a super big ship and full crew at least.

As for SWG, screw the Jedi, Commando ftw! You can keep your sissy magic, oversized glow-sticks and bath robes, give me a satchel of grenades and big ass cannon and I'm good. There's very few things as fun as walking into a room, tossin a few explosives in then laying waste to anyone who came close to surviving.

And as for FFXI:
Science needs explaining, magic don't, that's how it works. But if it helps, all the PCs are part of the crystal, hell all living things come from the Crystals. So when we get KO'd, we can literally return to them, and when someone dies permanently, they become part of said crystals.

As for zoneing, it was pointed out that we don't actually see the area change, but our characters still have to go through those parts. The Bridges of Jeuno is a prime example of that.

And as for traveling and exploration...you want them to make you have to explore...yet open up airships to everyone free of charge? besides that whole completely contradictory point...SE *did* make you have to explore and unlock the ways to easily teleport around the world. You have to travel through Wajoam to get the Olduum quest, you have to run to Jueno to unlock your Chocobo, you have to travel to every tele crystal and outpost and runic portal and Maw to gain access to them. And the missions just force you to explore even more. The first five ranks send you to all six of the starting beastmen strongholds as well as the outlying dungeons, Zilart sends you to every corner of the old world...and don't get me started on CoP.

Still, long story short, not a big trek fan so I won't be payin attention to this game, but it could still be decent.

Edit: Also, I would *love* to have my own ship in FFXI, even if it was just a plain old boat. There are enough ports in this game to make it worth while and would be real fun for those who get one. Though it'd prolly be a super expensive/rare form of travel, but it would still be cool.

[Effedup]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

I've been glancing at the Star Trek MMO, off and on, for a couple years now. If any MMO could definitively pull me away from FFXI, a Star Trek MMO would be the one. I've been a huge fan of Star Trek since kindergarten, seen every movie and episode dozens of times, except VOY, for some reason just couldn't get into the story line, although some episodes (Year in Hell, Future's End) were outstanding on their own, without having seen the bulk of the series.

Anyways, the little I've read about it recently, and the few screenshots I've seen, do not really impress me much. That's not to say that I won't give it a chance...I tried out LOTR via the Beta, I played WoW for a few months, and messed around with EVE and SWG after friends insisted I give them a shot, but none of them were enough to pull me away from FFXI. I'm hoping that the Star Trek MMO has a free trial available, so I can play it and feel it out before I spend money on it...but we'll see what happens there. If it turns out to be a big bag of shit, I'll dump it, but I do have to say that I will be A LOT more disappointed if that turns out to be the case, and I'll probably understand a lot better why the Star Wars peeps were so pissed off when Sony ruined Galaxies.

[Armando]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

Science needs explaining, magic don't, that's how it works.

Only if you don't care about your audience and don't mind them being completely unable suspend their disbelief. Magic needs every bit as much explaining - especially considering that explaining "science" often involves bullshit explanations because there's just no way for said device to really work. As soon as we step into the realm of the fictional, it doesn't matter what it is, explanations are needed if you expect me to give it some sort of credibility.

You can't just slap on a pink Mandragora into the plot and give it the power to turn Galkas into Humes and Mithras into Goblins and say it can do it because it's magic. Do note that there's explanations for most kinds of magic in FFXI.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

The challenge for an ST MMO would also be making the technobabble actually be something meaningful in a gameplay/roleplay context, but as for actual scientific explainations, it will still be bullshit on all levels.

Star Trek just makes the technobabble seem to make sense in the way its all worded. Chronoton particles apparently explain all time travel in Star Trek just for having the term "chrono" snuck in there. They found these time particles and if yours don't match up with everyone else, you're obviously not in the time you're supposed to be in.

But if we could align the chronoton signature of a runabout with your chronoton signature and find a matching signature in some rift or anomoly in space-time, we can probably get you back to your time. But we'd have to set up a self-destruct mechanism in the runabout and have you beamed down to the nearest planet, lest we risk introducing future technology into the past

Sound good? We'll get Geordi LaForge on it.

[Caspian]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

We'll get Geordi LaForge on it.

He's busy reading to me.

A little more on topic: I doubt I ever even look twice at this. I've also never played EVE, but I imagine the ST MMO will be a lot like EVE only with characters and races from the ST universe.

Heard a rumor about a Firefly MMO once. I think it was canned, though.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

I think Firefly got canned, yeah.

Anyway, I had hopes for this one, I just don't like the concept of it overall. Though it bringing RMTs frustration from the outset gives me warm fuzzies.

I wonder of DCU Online will even have an economy. See, if you're a hero, you've got some kinda job on the side unless you're a millionare like Batman. Meanwhile, villains would just steal money anyway, so why turn to an RMT if you're not living honestly to start with?

I'd guess "Leagues" could win government grants or donations like the Justice League sometimes does. Batman-types would need thier gadgets and there will be weapons, too, so there would be a need for some money. Also, there would be no fun in stealing money if it wasn't really worth anything.

[Ziero]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

Only if you don't care about your audience and don't mind them being completely unable suspend their disbelief. Magic needs every bit as much explaining - especially considering that explaining "science" often involves bullshit explanations because there's just no way for said device to really work. As soon as we step into the realm of the fictional, it doesn't matter what it is, explanations are needed if you expect me to give it some sort of credibility.

You can't just slap on a pink Mandragora into the plot and give it the power to turn Galkas into Humes and Mithras into Goblins and say it can do it because it's magic. Do note that there's explanations for most kinds of magic in FFXI.

Ironically, I actually did offer an explination behind the magic of homepointing. But that's beside he point. The whole reason behind my statement is that Magic is supposed to be some mysterious, supernatural ever present force that only some can ever fully comprehend despite so many being able to harness it. But science by it's very nature is understanding and explaining and creating based on knowledge gained and put to use. It's why Star Trek and other sciencey shows used Technobable, as fake as it was it was still an explination. But most magical based stories just say it happens with no detailed description in any way.

And there are plenty of bizarre and absurd things done in FFXI where "Magic" is the only explination.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

Most FF games, save for the earliest ones, have an explaination for magic:

FFV: The Crystals you're sent out to protect are sentient beings that endow you with your power, allowing you to learn new professions and various kinds of magic.

FFVI: Magic is a power weilded by a race known as the Espers, which parted ways with mankind after thier abuse of Magic before the War of the Magi. When an Esper die, they become Magicite, which is thier power crystalized in its most potent form. The weilder can learn new skills and magic from the spirit contained in the magicite

FFVII: People learn Magic and new abilities from Materia, which are crystal orbs produced at focal points of the Lifestream.

FFVIII: No crystals here. People forge symbiotic pacts with summons known as Guardian Forces, who share thier knowledge with humans they find worth. Unfortunate side effect is is comes at the cost of a human's early memories (OMG, we're all orphans, just like in FFIII).

FFIX: Magic comes from the Mist, which can apparently be used to mass produce a Black Mage army.

FFX: Spheres contain memories of the past and near past, can be used to record data and pass on abilities and spells to those that possess them.

FFXII: The Mist, again. This time its like The Force. Its in everything, all around us, inside and out. Magicite emits the power of Mist, Nethicite absorbs Mist and stores and stores ist power to be unleashed with destructive force.

FFXI: Magic was weilded by the ancient races and forgotten to the world after the cataclysm of Fei'Yin, thought to have wiped out the Zilart and Kuluu. When wandering tribes of Tarutaru settled in what would become Sarutabaruta, they found the ruins of the Kuluu which they called the Horutoto Ruins. After much exploration and study of the ruins, the Tarutaru learned the art of magic and after a time when relations with other nations became more civil, they shared this knowledge with the people of Bastok and San'doria.

Summoning is almost always explained as well, as of FFIV. Most of the time, with few exceptions, we are required to prove our power to the summons in order for them to work with us. In FFIV, FFX and for FFXI summoners this is often portrayed as a pilgirmage or right of passage. FFVIII and FFXII's portrayals don't have SMNs in the traditional sense, but the theme remains the same - prove your power.

FFVII is the only real exception, but damn if you don't gotta do some work for that summon materia, Knights of the Round especially.

Races of Summoners seem to have a few innate pacts with certain summons though, as shown in FFIV and FFIX.

FFXIII has already set up the Crystal of Cocoon as a sentient being that charges Lightning with a special task. This will likely also serve as the explanation for how character will learn spells and abilities. I expect summons to be just a predictable as ever in that you'll have to challenge them to obtain them.

[Pai Pai Master]

Re: Resistance is Futi... Oh, I can resist.

All MMOs suck.

This game has potential like all of them, but I won't be too shocked if it doesn't catch my fancy. I know a lot of hardcore Trekkies who will give it a shot though, so I'll wait for their impressions.