Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

[InuTrunks]

Well it seems that Microsoft got them selves in a PR spin storm right at the current moment, but it seems like they are talking their way out of it. The original idea (presented about a week ago) was that each track would have it's own dynamic lighting per the time you were playing (really cool). So if it's night outside, it's nighttime in the game (super awesome). Too bad this isn't the case now, and apparently it is the size limitations of a DVD9:

"Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD. So we've worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city."

(Posted July 27th)@their forums

Well now this doesn't seem like too much of a PR Spin problem, until you get someone from the company saying this:

When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.

Source:BC's Website (Pulled Aug 2. 2007)

Wait, what?

I see Microsoft going the way they will when they introduce their new HW revisions here shortly (End of 2007 or Beginning of 2008), I don't see the HD-DVD addon lasting for very much longer (seeing as how it'll come standard).

what do you guys think?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

/em plays BS card.

But what else is new? It's a PR Spin. Ultimately, Gamers are all the winners. I just can't stand the red tape we all get involved in.

[InuTrunks]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

It's my own personal matters on the fact. DVD9 is limiting in terms of data space compared to HD-DVD and Blueray.

[Pai Pai Master]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

Microsoft probably won't make games require HD-DVD drives, they'd practically be shooting themselves in the foot. They'd make more games require the HDD before doing that.

The next Microsoft platform, however? Guaranteed to ship with built-in BD or HD-DVD drive.

I don't think we'll see disc space constraining major parts of games for a little while, only more minor things such as day/night cycles in a racing game. I firmly believe that high-capacity discs are needed for next-gen consoles, but it won't be any time soon that we see games really take advantage of that space in new ways in some later-gen games.

[PhiberOpticks]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

I have my doubts about a new Xbox 360 including BRD just because Microsoft is too stubborn to give out on a format so soon. But an HD-DVD is a definite as far as I can tell.

They'd make more games require the HDD before doing that.

But that would make more sense as no intelligent person would buy just a core 360.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

I firmly believe that high-capacity discs are needed for next-gen consoles

My fiance is a non-gamer. Actually, calling her an anti-gamer may be better, given how she feels about FFXI.

Surprisingly, she actually has a favorite video game: Wii Tennis. I can't think of a single way a "high-capacity disc" could make that game significantly more fun. At least, not enough to be worth the cost of a high-capacity disc drive unit.

She is practically demanding a Nintendo Wii for her birthday...

* * *

Exactly how much more fun would BD or HD DVD add to a video game? Is that more than a simple innovation in user interface which allow the players to feel more a part the game in front of them?

In my eyes, Wii is the only real "Next-Gen" game console out there. Both PS3 and xBox360 are just about more of the same: more graphic power, more CPU power, more networking, more storage. They are really just "Last-Gen, version 2.5," as far as I can tell.

Wii, instead, set out to convince non-gamers that gamers have more fun--and ask them to join us. By all appearances, it is succeeding.

* * *

BTW, the only other device with that kind of appeal seems to be GameBoy DS. (Though, not so much in U.S.) Go Nintendo. lol.

* * *

Disclaimer: I don't own any of these machines. The only game consoles I have are a PS2 and a PS1 (in a box somewhere), and I like the PS2 just fine. No use calling me a Nintendo fanboy or whatnot.

[jwalton]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

High density formats are NOT needed for next-gen consoles. Procedural generation is something that developers need to embrace a lot more.


These graphics are from a first person shooter called .kkrieger which used procedural generation. The game is 96 KB in size. It is not a very long game, but the point is, it's estimated it would have taken 200-300 MB to reproduce the same content using conventional game development methods. You can read about the game here.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

Yup, because compression is so what's in.

I love 2.1 Stereo sound.

[Pai Pai Master]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

Compression methods are getting more effective. Look at Oblivion. Massive game, yet it's among the smallest in capacity of next-gen titles. ..kreiger is an incredible feat, but it could go one way or the other to see how developers handle the issue of disc capacity.

And Ifrit, I should have clarified as I don't consider the Wii a next-gen console in the same light as the 360 or PS3. With the simplicity of Wii titles, the ease of development and lack of HD support, it'll likely be rare to find a Wii game that uses up an entire DVD. And I certainly don't think the 360 or PS3 don't allow for more "fun" in games. It depends on what you consider fun. Using the Wii Remote as a tennis racket, as a golf club, as a bowling ball are all exciting and new ways to experience a game. I haven't laughed so hard playing a game in a long time before the first time I played WarioWare on Wii.

However, I think the high power of the other next-gen consoles allow for far more innovations that matter to more gamers, which is all fine and dandy, as the Wii is intended for a much different audience. Where the Wii innovates in ways that draws in a more casual audience, the 360 and PS3 innovate in ways that draw in gamers who want to see more important advancements in traditional games, such as enhanced AI and physics.

[InuTrunks]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

It's nice and all, but it wouldn't work with the ram limitations on video games. This was taking almost 400MB just to process idle, that's with no enemies on the screen.

such as enhanced AI and physics.

And this is where alot of data comes form as well. AI is not cheap to manufacture.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

AI is not cheap to manufacture.

But rehashes/sequals definitely are.

I think it's way to early to be jumping on the "optical storage is on the way out" bandwagon, mostly because it simply isn't feasible to download a game that is multiple GBs in space, and then download additional content periodically.

At least not without the advancements in storage per/space..

But since we DO have to rely on optical storage for at least a few more years, then I'd like to go with BluRay, for no other fact than accessibility to content and variety potential.

[Icemage]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

I have to go back and take issue with the original premise. Microsoft cannot and will not include an HD DVD drive standard on the Xbox 360 for the forseeable future.

Why? It's not cost. It's speed.

The Xbox 360 right now features a 12x DVD drive, with a maximum bandwidth of 16MB/s (if you ever wondered why the Xbox 360 drives tend to be noisy - this is why).

An HD DVD drive spins at only 1x, with a maximum bandwidth of only 4.5MB/s.

Microsoft would need to convince Toshiba to manufacture 2x HD DVD drives (something which Toshiba has yet to be able to do in a stable fashion, apparently - even their commercial burner device is only 1x) to even get within shouting distance of decent load times.

Without a 2x drive, games will load at nearly one fourth of their current speed. Not a good thing to have happen when you have games that already suffer tangibly from long load times like Oblivion.

Incidentally, the PS3's Blu-ray drive is 2x and can do up to 9Mbps (which is slower than the 360's DVD9 drive), and that's still something of a bottleneck for it.


Icemage

[DakAttack]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

I don't have much to contribute, but I feel so in-the-loop reading these threads.

.kkrieger was pretty cool, but it seems they blocked the way to the 'third' gun with an invisible wall. The enemies were able to track me through it, but not pass through it. I found the skywalk button and eventually quit when I got stuck to a wall. The sound quality wasn't terrible for a game of its caliber, and the loading time wasn't that bad either.

Needed more idspispopd for that damn invisible wall.

[jwalton]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

The Xbox 360 right now features a 12x DVD drive, with a maximum bandwidth of 16MB/s (if you ever wondered why the Xbox 360 drives tend to be noisy - this is why).

This is why I can't wait for the Falcons to debut this November. The new BenQ DVD-ROM drives that are appearing in some of the more recent 360 Elites are a lot quieter and will undoubtedly be in all the new hardware revised 360s. The current Samsung and Hitachi DVD-ROM drives in most 360s including my own are pretty bleh.

[DakAttack]

Re: Future Estimates, Xbox360 shipping with HD-DVD

Seriously, what's up with the invisible wall? It's bugging the hell out of me.