Best in the Series

[Rostum]

Re: Best in the Series

The thing about XII that stuck out the most to me was how Vayne genuinely took responsiblity, and cared, for the people of Rabanastre, helping them to rebuild politically (to a limited extent), economically, infrastructure-wise, and directly confronting the people themselves about the current situation, attempting (successfully) to ease their concerns ever the transition period and helping them come to terms with the occupation. That's class (and a shit ton of ranks in Diplomacy ).
Sephiroth wouldn't do that. He'd simply burn your village to the ground, all the while spouting some nonsense about his "mother" and their eventual hereditary right to rule.
Kefka wouldn't do that. He'd simply turn your father to magicite, control your mind, nuke your village, and decimate the world. All while laughing. Maniacally.
Ultimecia wouldn't do that. She'd simply take control of your local sorceress' mind, alter space/time, and attempt to eradicate your way of life by preventing it from ever happeneing.
Garland/Chaos wouldn't do that. He'd simply drive the world into an endless time loop just so he wouldn't die. Lame.
Yu Yevon wouldn't do that. It'd simply make you the next Sin.
Zemus, Kuja, Shadow Lord, Promathia, Palmecia, Ex-Death, all of them, they all had some over-the-topness with them, they were the fantastic, the fantasy, the unreal, and they all pulled it off more or less without a hitch in their respective games, but compared to each other, some of them seem too far out there, while others, not strong enough to be villains.
Vayne seems to be the most 'normal' of the bunch, and even then, I don't entirely see him as being all that evil, as much as being on the side the player isn't. Even then, the game goes through a good deal of effort to convince you that Vayne and Cid were actually onto something, and that they weren't so bad after all.
That's what stuck out to me as being what was most memorable about this FF; the main villain of XII, if there was one, was wearing a red miniskirt, and was hanging out in your party the whole time (although I did make her into a pretty good Paladin-type, Japanese schoolgirl uniform references aside).
Oh, and yeah, more bunny girls plz. kthx.

The thing is, FFXII shows that nothing is black and white like previous Final Fantasy games seem to show. And that's pretty good. I think the main thing that made Vayne to appear as if he was on the bad side, is basically the fact that he actually intended for Rabinastre to be destroyed in the end (so he could expand his empire and evidently put the fate of Ivalice back in the hands of men). I wouldn't say Vayne is a good guy, or that he is completely evil as past villians, though.

I mean, apart from the obvious differences in directors, there's certain reasons why other villains are portrayed differently than one another. For instance, with Sephiroth, the game obviously wanted to make out that he was a hero and the best soldier in that world -- obviously not a part of politics like Vayne was.

So I guess, after (if you read) my ramblings that probably don't make sense; you really haven't seen much politics in Final Fantasy games until Final Fantasy XII (aside from briefly hinting on it with Final Fantasy X / X-2).

[Feba]

Re: Best in the Series

Sadly, FFX's politics went something like:

Seymour: Ah, yes, I am a great-
Tidus: I LOVE YOU YUNA.
Seymour: Be quiet, this is my part-
Yuna: I LOVE YOU TIDUS
Seymour: Urgh! Just let me-
Rikku: HEY I LOVE HIM TOO.
Seymour: How many hent-
Lulu: YOU'RE A LOT LIKE THE GUY I USED TO LOVE
Seymour: Whoever wrote this script, F-
Wakka: YOU'RE LIKE THE LITTLE BROTHER I LOVED UNTIL HE DIED. I LOVE YOU NOW INSTEAD.
Seymour: Ok, that's just wrong.

[Cometgreen]

Re: Best in the Series

Vayne seems to be the most 'normal' of the bunch, and even then, I don't entirely see him as being all that evil, as much as being on the side the player isn't. Even then, the game goes through a good deal of effort to convince you that Vayne and Cid were actually onto something, and that they weren't so bad after all.

Except his plan to free mankind/bunnykind from the gods was to in fact become a god and impose his own will on Ivalice, wasn't it? He wanted to become the new Dynast King and unite the world through force. I guess it depends on how you take the "ends justify the means" stance (as well as "power corrupts"), but I wouldn't want to replace tyrants for another tyrant, even if he is trying to help me. I don't believe in suspending freedom or breaking the laws to get your way, even if your way sounds really good. That's the difference between your guys and Archadia. Whether it is shortsighted or wrong of the heroes is up to you, I guess.

It could kind of be compared to the Golden Path in the Dune series: plunging humanity into a dark age to spark a golden age, creating a dictatorship to prepare people for true freedom, what have you. That is, if I'm remembering the stories of both correctly. I probably shouldn't be writing when half-asleep.

As for Ashe, she simply wants to keep her people safe, which is her duty. As I remember it, she pretty much said she didn't care about the struggle between Cid/Vayne and the gods; she just wanted her country back. This is what I really like about it, as Vayne wants the same thing, so the villain and the real leader of the good guys have the same intentions, just happen to be on different sides. Vayne could even be seen as more noble, as his (Cid's, really) intention to free Ivalice extends to more than just Archadia. Ashe did have a sense of bloodlust for quite a while, but that died down near the end.

[Feba]

Re: Best in the Series

The graphics weren't over the top at the time, it was a fairly good breakthrough.

I was talking about the characters. Like I said, the 3D graphics weren't there yet.

Then, the characters are over the top. Big difference.

And I might not have finished, but I do know most of the storyline from friends, hacked ROMs, and reading through a lot of it.

Again, why makes you say it isn't a Final Fantasy?

Because, it almost is too realistic, and more importantly than that, you aren't fighting against some horribly and obviously evil force. Your enemy is just a guy, he's not out to destroy the universe or take over the planet for himself. It's not some group of nearly nobodies up against an overwhelming force. It also has a lot to do with the music. FFXII's music just didn't seem to live up to the quality of the rest of the series, but more importantly, it didn't draw your attention. Play through FFV or FFVII, it might not be high quality sound-wise, but the music is there and it sets a mood.

I don't know what you mean by "not that many", I have played a large majority of them.

And I really don't get how you would not understand the motives of Sephiroth,

I do understand the motives they gave him, what I was saying was that they're very very weak motives. His actions are practically non-sensical. He's not really a bad character, except the fact that the way they put him in his situation was poor. If he had been told some other way that he had some god-given power and right to take over the planet, his role would make more sense, but the way he basically went from thinking he was a monster to thinking the world screwed him over is lame.

It'd also help if you understood why Aeris died.

I understand perfectly well WHY she died, it's the way she died I dislike. Seriously, just randomly killing off a character with no warning like that, with no way to stop it, goes from beyond plot twist to the point where it almost seems like the writers threw darts at a storyboard to see what would happen. This is especially poor because it is quite possible to put a lot of effort into her character without knowing that she'll die. Possibly something like making it clear earlier on that she'd have to die in order to cast the spell, and then killing her off anyway, might have been better, since it still gets the party really pissed with Sephiroth.

[Chro]

Re: Best in the Series

FFXII- Personally, this didn't really feel like an FF game to me... it seemed more like a regular RPG with a lot of references to Final Fantasy in it. That said, this is, in my opinion, the best game in the series. The story is VERY realistic (you can actually draw a lot of parallels between it and a lot of other things in real life, try that with FF7).

I dunno, i always get annoyed when people try to link real life to an RPG like this. I mean, yeah it's cool and all but it's called Final FANTASY. So really it should be anything but real life in my opinion.

[Vildar]

Re: Best in the Series

Characters i don't like...I hated Yuffie and Cait Sith in FF7, they were both annoying in my eyes and i never used to level them up which made me come to problems eventually .

Ahh, once yuffie and cait sith back stabed me in the game, i rejected them imidietly. When yuffie stole my materia, that blasted winged boos thing was a bitch to kill. I had to try find many items that do bolt 3, ice 3 etc, just to try kill it before it raped us from all sides.

[Feba]

Re: Best in the Series

I dunno, i always get annoyed when people try to link real life to an RPG like this. I mean, yeah it's cool and all but it's called Final FANTASY.

Which is why I said it doesn't really feel like an FF game :D

[Chro]

Re: Best in the Series

Which is why I said it doesn't really feel like an FF game :D

My mistake!

[Rostum]

Re: Best in the Series

Sadly, FFX's politics went something like:
Seymour: Ah, yes, I am a great-
Tidus: I LOVE YOU YUNA.
Seymour: Be quiet, this is my part-
Yuna: I LOVE YOU TIDUS
Seymour: Urgh! Just let me-
Rikku: HEY I LOVE HIM TOO.
Seymour: How many hent-
Lulu: YOU'RE A LOT LIKE THE GUY I USED TO LOVE
Seymour: Whoever wrote this script, F-
Wakka: YOU'RE LIKE THE LITTLE BROTHER I LOVED UNTIL HE DIED. I LOVE YOU NOW INSTEAD.
Seymour: Ok, that's just wrong.

I was more or less talking about the whole corruption in the Yevon council, and about why Sin was created.

I was talking about the characters. Like I said, the 3D graphics weren't there yet.
Then, the characters are over the top. Big difference.

You're talking about characters and their graphics, I think it still counts. The technology wasn't there at the time, but you have to try these kinds of things to make advancements.

And I might not have finished, but I do know most of the storyline from friends, hacked ROMs, and reading through a lot of it.

I think you'd find that it is not the same by just reading up about it. By reading up about it, you open yourself to a lot of different interpretations that people have on the game.

Because, it almost is too realistic,and more importantly than that, you aren't fighting against some horribly and obviously evil force. Your enemy is just a guy, he's not out to destroy the universe or take over the planet for himself. It's not some group of nearly nobodies up against an overwhelming force.

See, I will agree that it is more realistic than other Final Fantasies, but honestly, I was getting sick of the same stories told over and over again. I welcome this change.

It also has a lot to do with the music. FFXII's music just didn't seem to live up to the quality of the rest of the series, but more importantly, it didn't draw your attention.

I agree there, but it wasn't too bad I guess. It was high production soundtrack than compared to the others, but it lacked that of which Nobou usually makes up for.

Play through FFV or FFVII, it might not be high quality sound-wise, but the music is there and it sets a mood.

Trust me, I absolutely adore Final Fantasy music, especially the orchestrated and arranged pieces of older games. Music is an extremely huge part of my life (I work in the industry).

I don't know what you mean by "not that many", I have played a large majority of them.

You just listed all the Final Fantasy games and continued to say that you had only played half, a little or haven't played them at all.

I do understand the motives they gave him, what I was saying was that they're very very weak motives. His actions are practically non-sensical. He's not really a bad character, except the fact that the way they put him in his situation was poor.

I think in the development of Advent Children, it made his character a hell of a lot weaker. But at the time, I think his motives and his situation were just fine. Jenova made him believe that she was his mother, and that she was an ancient, and a whole bunch of other stuff I can't be bothered getting into. It's easy to assume he'd go insane over stuff like that.

If he had been told some other way that he had some god-given power and right to take over the planet, his role would make more sense, but the way he basically went from thinking he was a monster to thinking the world screwed him over is lame.

I think this is explained well in the game. If you kept playing, you'd realise that Cloud actually threw him into the lifestream, where he then traveled to the Northern area and soaked up a lot of information. There'd be plenty of reasons why he'd think he's a god if he's one of the most knowledgeable. Think of it as a god-complex of some sort.

I understand perfectly well WHY she died, it's the way she died I dislike. Seriously, just randomly killing off a character with no warning like that, with no way to stop it, goes from beyond plot twist to the point where it almost seems like the writers threw darts at a storyboard to see what would happen.

Ah I see, you should have explained that before hand. But even still, it shocked a lot of players and a lot of players at the time felt sad for her death. Which is exactly what Square wanted.

This is especially poor because it is quite possible to put a lot of effort into her character without knowing that she'll die. Possibly something like making it clear earlier on that she'd have to die in order to cast the spell, and then killing her off anyway, might have been better, since it still gets the party really pissed with Sephiroth.

Yes, they could have come up with some more depth in that regard. But I'd say you'd really have to think about the production costs and time they had; there are a lot of restraints when it comes to stuff like that.

[Armando]

Re: Best in the Series

FFT's by far my favorite; Ramza's the most awesome protagonist ever and Delita is the most bad-ass antagonist ever. The story is brilliant but I really wish they'd have done a much better job with the translation.

But that's just me.

[Feba]

Re: Best in the Series

You're talking about characters and their graphics, I think it still counts.

No, i'm not. The graphics are not there. The characters are stereotypical and over-the-top. They are DIFFERENT SUBJECTS. Stop trying to combine them.

By reading up about it, you open yourself to a lot of different interpretations that people have on the game.

I said reading it, as in reading through scripts and watching cutscenes.

you'd realise that Cloud actually threw him into the lifestream, where he then traveled to the Northern area and soaked up a lot of information.

Again, I know the story. Stop trying to explain it to me.

I welcome this change.

As do I. Like I said, I think FFXII is the best of the series, even though it's very different. Which kind of makes me sad for FFXIII, since it looks like it's going to be another huge-swords-and-anime-hair-in-a-bleak-future-FF, and sounds like it's going to last quite a while.

[Malacite]

Re: Best in the Series

I forgot about Vayne... yes, he (and his little brother, name escapes me) were great characters. I think FF12 could have been implemented a lot better, and SE really should have taken more time with it.

Vaan was a complete joke. You do NOT make the "main character" (it's really Ashe) such a one-dimentional nobody who has little to no influence on the story for more than half the game. WTF.

Balthier ranks up there as one of my all-time favorite characters. This guy is an instant-classic, and real tribute to Setzer in some ways.

Vayne was a wonderful villain actually, and reminds me so much of Chairman Durandal from Gundam Seed Destiny it's not funny. I still think they could have done him a bit better though in terms of how he wanted to "liberate" Ivalice. For someone so against the gods, it really struck me as odd that he'd become one himself and do the same thing he did.

Ashe seemed like a much stronger (but less likable) Yuna. As with FFX, she steals the spotlight from the "main character", with the difference being that at least in X Tidus remained in integral part to the plot.



Oh, and Feba, you really should play more of the games and finish the ones you've started. You really don't have much right to criticize the series as a whole I'm sorry to say. I personally have beaten all but 3 thus far, and that's only because I keep neglecting it. I'm at the end of the game, I just haven't felt like leveling up to max out my HP and charging into the final boss fight.


A few tips though for where you are in 5;

Start mastering jobs. If you haven't already, get the Oracle's AP up ability and wail on enemies near the final save point (I hope you're loaded with tents to heal everyone when needed). You'll get tonnes of AP real fast.

The reason for this is when you master certain jobs, some traits get passed on to the Freelancer class, such as Dual-Wield. This means that when you're set to Freelancer, you won't need to set Dual-wield as an ability; you can already do it.


The key abilities needed to kick X-death's ass are the following;

Dual-Wield, Spellblade (God please bring mystic knight to ff 11 ; ; ), and Barrage (I think that's what they call it, I forget the name... but it lets u attack 4-times).

Then you equip your 2 best weapons, and cast either Holy or Flare sword, then proceed to skull**** X-death for 80,000 damage a turn >- >

[Rostum]

Re: Best in the Series

No, i'm not. The graphics are not there. The characters are stereotypical and over-the-top. They are DIFFERENT SUBJECTS. Stop trying to combine them.

I believe that we are having miscommunication, because it's only until now that I realize what the hell you are on about. How exactly are they stereotypical? I'm still confused on where you're heading with that.

I said reading it, as in reading through scripts and watching cutscenes.

That is still not the same as actually playing through a game from start to finish. There are a lot of things you still could have missed.

Again, I know the story. Stop trying to explain it to me.

If you know the story so well, then why'd you come to a whole incorrect conclusion to Sephiroth's character and situation in the game? You saying that "he went from thinking he was a monster to thinking the world screwed him over" can suggest this.

As do I. Like I said, I think FFXII is the best of the series, even though it's very different. Which kind of makes me sad for FFXIII, since it looks like it's going to be another huge-swords-and-anime-hair-in-a-bleak-future-FF, and sounds like it's going to last quite a while.

Ah I see. I think that FFXIII looks promising, and I think it'll be successful (but that could very well be just because of the name). It's more Versus that I'm worried about.

[Feba]

Re: Best in the Series

If you know the story so well, then why'd you come to a whole incorrect conclusion to Sephiroth's character and situation in the game?

Because I'm intelligent enough to form my own opinions. It's not incorrect, it's the way the story felt to me. Your mileage may vary.

Malacite, I don't need advice, I need to get off my ass and backtrack through the entire damn void and level more, it's just a PITA.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Best in the Series

Vaan was a complete joke. You do NOT make the "main character" (it's really Ashe) such a one-dimentional nobody who has little to no influence on the story for more than half the game. WTF.

Except there was no main character, Vaan is just the guy you started out with and has problems with the Empire like anyone else.

Who was the main character of FFVI or FFXII?

The one you liked the most.

Could have been Locke, Celes, Terra, Sabin or anyone. You start off with Terra, then halfway you start over rebuilding the cast with Celes. You didn't have to rebuild your entire PT, could just have left most of them behind in the World of Ruin.

Look at the FFXII characters, too. Vaan and Penelo were just street kids who lost a lot due to the empire, Ashe lost her kingdom, Basch was accused of murdering his king and labeled a traitor, Baltheier and Fran seem like they're just sky pirates at first, but they have motives to fight the Empire as well. And then there was every other NPC in the game that took on huge roles as well.

Vaan was more of an anchor than anything, probably the guy you could relate to the most easily. He could have been the main character to somone, Ashe was more of a main character to me.

FFXII in general just had a different tone from the main series, something it shares with Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics, even Fire Emblem. They're very politically driven stories, somewhat more cerebral than emotional, but not devoid of emotion. I think this was best played out in the relationship between Vayne and Larsa. They're brothers and its clear Vanye would like to off Larsa, he just can't ever seem to find a convienent way to do so because Larsa is so resilient. And all the same, Larsa still loves his brother and tries to steer him to do good.

That's just a little better than some guy letting the disembodied head of his mother tell him what to do and watch the protagonist endlessly mope about some girl who died when all the other characters were more interesting. Hate to say it, but I liked Yuffie and Cait Sith better than Aerith. I still hated them, but they weren't as one-dimensional. Once you got past the animatronic cat, Reeve is actually a very compelling character, as was Vincent. Yuffie just jacked you materia, I hate her.