Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

[Malevolent]

The press release from Tokyo Game Show revealed that and upcoming xbox live update would allow the 360 " to output game and movie content in 1080p resolution". In an interview with gaming blog Kotaku, Shane Kim, VP of Microsoft Game Studios, who clairified that there were no current plans to add HDMI support. But, he added, "we do have the capability to deliver the software and if needed, the hardware." Kim added, "720p is the sweet spot for high def gaming." Microsoft game studios will continue to work at that medium.

Vs Sony

Phil Harrison
"The way the 360 works is that they have 512 MB of memory, the same as the PS3. But they have general purpose memory, rather than system-specified memory. But they only have a 10MB internal frame buffer and thats why they can't do 1080p full frame. Because the image has to be in the frame buffer and a full 1080p image is 8MB, so you can't double buffer."

Discuss!!

Edit: on my 360 with the new patch for 1080p it crashes almost every other DVD or game. mostly on Gears of war. I'm on my 4th 360 so far since the release date. ALWAYS GET PURCHASE PROTECTION WHEN BUYING FROM BEST BUY. it pays off in the end. also all you PS3 owners out there since in JP sony lowered the price to 49,980 yen about $427 US if you tried to get the PS3 at this good luck best buy won't sell it for that much. but most small retailers like gamestop or gamecrazy will swing for that price. My brother just got his for $430 at a game crazy shop.

[Icemage]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

This isn't really news to those that have been following the next generation console wars.

It's been known for quite some time that the Xbox 360 in its current incarnation cannot handle 1080p output. The hardware simply does not allow for it.

In fact, it's now an open secret that Microsoft is planning to release a new version of the Xbox 360 with new specifications including HDMI support, code-named Zephyr:
http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/xbox-36...ion-226584.php

I don't know about you, but if I were an existing Xbox 360 owner, I'd be just a mite upset at this latest development.

The PS3 reportedly has some issues with downscaling 1080p into other signals, so I consider it something of a wash. I hear rumblings that this is fixable via firmware update, and it's true that my 1080p HDTV displays Resistance: Fall of Man correctly at 720p as advertised, though whether that's because my TV is doing the scaling or my PS3, I have no idea.


Icemage

[Davitron3000]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

The PS3 reportedly has some issues with downscaling 1080p into other signals, so I consider it something of a wash. I hear rumblings that this is fixable via firmware update, and it's true that my 1080p HDTV displays Resistance: Fall of Man correctly at 720p as advertised, though whether that's because my TV is doing the scaling or my PS3, I have no idea.
Icemage

This kinda bothered me a little when I found out about it. I suppose I should of looked into it better, but I have an older (and cheaper) HDTV. It is a CRT that supports 1080i and 480p but no 720p, so games like R:FOM scale down to 480p for me. Game still looks good, but they could of put a scaler chip in the system considering it was so expensive... I am n00b when it comes to stuff like this.

*is jealous of Icemage's 1080p tv*

Anyways this will not stop me from buying games that only support up to 720p because if they are fun I will play them even if I can't play them in HD. I just hope they will start having developers make all the games work on 1080i.

[Ezra]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

. . .

[Caspian]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

"720p is the sweet spot for high def gaming." Microsoft game studios will continue to work at that medium.

Ummm....I don't think I'm buying this.
In what way shape or form is video at less than best considered the "sweet spot"? I could be way off, can't say I know a whole lot about the technological side of gaming, but usually games are pretty much on the cutting edge of graphics, and you'd want to exploit 1080p as much as possible, just like the new hi-def dvd's.
Sounds like major posturing to me.

[Icemage]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

Ummm....I don't think I'm buying this.
In what way shape or form is video at less than best considered the "sweet spot"? I could be way off, can't say I know a whole lot about the technological side of gaming, but usually games are pretty much on the cutting edge of graphics, and you'd want to exploit 1080p as much as possible, just like the new hi-def dvd's.

Sounds like major posturing to me.

Naturally.

Microsoft's position vis-a-vis HD video has always been that it is a niche market, and they would only support it if they saw demand for it, which is why they're having trouble backpedaling now that they've not only gone and released a HD-DVD player for the 360, but are planning to release a new version of it that supports 1080p HD output.

---

Really the whole next gen war is a huge mess. Being firmly entrenched in it myself as a PS3 and Wii owner, I've been monitoring the PS3/360/Wii discussions over the last few weeks, and the conflict has now spilled over into the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray war, since the introduction of the PS3 has now put Blu-Ray into the driver's seat as far as install base (1,500,000 PS3s sold versus 175,000 stand-alone HD-DVD units, including the Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on).

Honestly, the news is looking pretty good for Sony these days. While the PS3 isn't selling the pants off the competition, it's doing very well at its price point, and that's really without much of a game library, and it still sells out consistently even now so there's still a lot of growth to be had there.

More interesting to me, though, is the synergy between the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD conflict and the console wars. All through 2006, HD-DVD was out in front, as it was first to market. It had more install base, it had more titles, it had more sales. The PS3 ships, and now all of a sudden HD-DVD is looking at an 8 to 1 deficit in market penetration for players, and to compound the effect, the number of announced titles for Blu-Ray movies completely overshadows that for HD-DVD in the next 12 months (current estimates put the scorecard over the next 12 months to be ~100 HD-DVD exclusive movie titles, ~200 dual format releases, and ~300-400 Blu-Ray exclusive titles).

Considering that both HD formats cater to high-end consumers, I don't think the higher buy-in price of Blu-Ray players will necessarily turn people off (particularly the PS3, which is a ridiculously good value for its price), which probably leaves content as the deciding vote. Doesn't matter how cheap your player is if your favorite movie isn't available on it, and at this time, 7 of 8 major movie studios plan to release films on Blu-Ray. while only 4 will release on HD-DVD (see above notation about the number of exclusive titles coming to each format in this calendar year).

All in all, a very twisted puzzle. Should be interesting to see if/how the two format wars interact.


Icemage

[Caspian]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

Where did you get the PS3 and HD-DVD add-on numbers? The numbers I saw from CES were lower. (PS3: 687,300 and HDDVD addon: 92,000)
Anyway, I've taken a much larger interest in the format war than in the console wars. Console wars will always exist, the market is big enough to support 2 or 3 different consoles. I don't see it working for movies, though. In fact, after reading some unbiased reports on CES from last week, a lot of people are speculating BD to be the winner by the end of '07.
Warner and now New Line are backing both, and even releasing THD the second half of this year.
Fox, MGM, Buena Vista, and Sony are backing BD fully.
And the only exclusive studio for HD-DVD that I'm aware of is Universal. Who didn't give any information about new releases this year. (Especially nothing about their big ones: Back to the Future, Jaws, and Jurassic Park. All three are big sellers and could keep HD-DVD in the fray longer.)
Most of the stuff you get from the booths in CES is all propaganda, but Sony sounded a lot more convincing in the interviews and speeches I read. Projections have them way outselling HD-DVD this year and their list of movie releases (like you said) is much, much larger than Toshiba's.

Anyway...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but w/o an HDMI port, how the hell are you supposed to get 1080p out of that? I thought the most you could get with component was 1080i?
And wtf @ Microsoft? How do you not see 1080p as being the next big thing?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

Microsoft's biggest card is that their fans are complete retards who live off of the spin.

Being a Sony backer, I've seen a lot of cheap shots, such as Peter Moore saying "Yeah, the Wii is a fantastic system!"

Now you have Microsoft supporters going "Ha! See! He said it, blah blah blah."

It's all terrible, and it has come to the point where I'll read Engaget and Joystiq and all the other sites, but I'll avoid the comments, because I've noticed that consumers are largely and surprisingly uneducated.

Of COURSE Microsoft is going to say 720p is the next big thing: They're hands are tied behind their backs.

Of COURSE they're going to take everything Sony puts out and spins it. It's come to the point where they're proudly touting "10 Million units sold! Hahaha! We won! Game Over! Pack it in guys, let's focus on the next Xbox and effectively make sure that our current supporters have obsolete equipment."

To be fair, Microsoft is very new to this video game thing. They aren't concerned about the fact that little Timmy will get the handed down XB after his big brother Tom gets a 360. Being the creators of Windows, it's not a shock that they don't care who has the last generation of goods: It's either upgrade or be left out of the loop.

Which is why it's funny to me that the PS2 is outselling the 360 by a ridiculous margin. That's why Microsoft is shying away, trying to point out that they're obviously selling more than a system that isn't 3 months old yet.

I've never seen Sony take any serious shots at another company, and that's admirable. They didn't shy away when they were obviously winning the last generation by a bigger ration than 3:1. This generation, they've kept their grits on now that they got a late start and almost every factor is ahead of them including the main culprits of every company's woe, the Media.

Microsoft execs know how to be media presentable and they know how to take the smallest insignificant chink in the armor and make it seem like a disaster.

"Of course the PS3 sold out, there weren't any units available lmao!!!"

"Sony's first attempt at a lolNetwork is horrible!"

"Wii60 ftw!"

But keep this in mind: Microsoft doesn't care about gamers. They're using the 360 to convieniently put downloadable HD content to our living rooms. It's part of the master plan, and the 360 is the Trojan horse. It might be good for the Technology market as a whole, but it pains me to see them being so indirect in everything they do. I can only see the game industry being hurt by this. (Oh and I have a link in my blog with some supporting evidence. And if you've been savvy and checking the news lately, you'll have seen more direct hint at this...)

It's like there is no honor amongst enemies anymore.

Oh well, I could really care less, because I'm glad Sony finally got out the door and the world saw the system. So all the Rumorangs can be thrown, all the "exclusive titles" can claim to "be going to the 360" (Metal Gear Solid 4 among others...), and Microsoft can go on to avoid talking about how unfutureproof their excuse for a 3-year cycle console is...

I'm buying a PS3, with a very budget friendly 1080p television and I'll be a very happy individual for the next ~9 years. At least.

[Caspian]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

Sony doesn't talk too much crap in the console world, but you should have read some of the press releases about BD and HD-DVD. Both sides were pretty deep in the crap they were shoveling. Still are, tbh. Its the way the game is played I suppose. Like 5 year olds arguing over who has the cooler toy.

[Icemage]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

Sony's not innocent in this fray. They've made innumerable mistakes over the past twelve months, especially in the PR side (which is largely why they've taken such a bashing on the net of late, though to be completely fair the positive Blu-Ray spin is turning heads and changing a lot of opinions).

This is the first time I've seen signs that Sony will win the HD format war, and that's very good news for the PS3. Microsoft can posture all they want about downloadable content but the technology simply is not there to support it right now. Even in the best circumstances with the fastest broadband connections, you're not going to be able to stream full 1080p HD content to a device consistently, and it will be a number of years before this is even feasible for a niche of users, much less the general public.

There's also the teeny tiny issue of the Core System Xbox 360 not even having a hard drive... I'm dying to hear Microsoft's spin on how those users are expected to do any of this without forcibly upgrading. Nice "future-proofing" there.


Icemage

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

In Microsoft's corner of the world, they don't care about anyone outside of the people who they want to look at.

According to them, the product is so great, people will WANT to upgrade.

It's like 10 million is a fluff number that is only signaling the installed base, and if they succeeded in having 10 million potential customers, their battle is already won.

Oh yeah, Malevolent, good looks on the Frame Buffer quote. That sh** is hilarious.

[Nazo]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

Ummm....I don't think I'm buying this.
In what way shape or form is video at less than best considered the "sweet spot"?

I think he's talking about the best trade off between quality and performance. It's all very well Sony bragging about have 1080p, but PS3 hasn't managed it yet either in it's launch titles. Perhaps we'll see it in the future as devs get to grips with PS3's capabilities but I predict most demanding titles will be running at 720p for some time yet.

Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD yeah, the numbers look bad but you can safely say 100% of HD-DVD player owners got it for the movie capability, it remains to be seen how good the take-up of Blu-Ray for PS3 owners will be.

I hope Sony come out on top (well 2nd to Nintendo anyway), because the alternative is not a nice thought but it sure isn't cut-and-dry yet.

[Icemage]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

I think he's talking about the best trade off between quality and performance. It's all very well Sony bragging about have 1080p, but PS3 hasn't managed it yet either in it's launch titles. Perhaps we'll see it in the future as devs get to grips with PS3's capabilities but I predict most demanding titles will be running at 720p for some time yet.

On the contrary, I have one of the 1080p titles on the PS3 (Marvel Ultimate Alliance). It very much does output in 1080p (as do some of the other launch titles like NBA2K7).

Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD yeah, the numbers look bad but you can safely say 100% of HD-DVD player owners got it for the movie capability, it remains to be seen how good the take-up of Blu-Ray for PS3 owners will be.

That's really the big question mark. I think one thing is for sure though - it's going to be much easier to convince a PS3 owner to buy a Blu-ray movie than it is to convince an Xbox 360 owner to buy a $200 HD-DVD add-on and THEN buy the HD-DVD movie (which they then cannot output in 1080p).

I hope Sony come out on top (well 2nd to Nintendo anyway), because the alternative is not a nice thought but it sure isn't cut-and-dry yet.

I've already picked my horse in this race on the strength of my belief that Sony will win.

EDIT: Going to move this to Video Game discussion since it really belongs over there.


Icemage

[Davitron3000]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

I think he's talking about the best trade off between quality and performance. It's all very well Sony bragging about have 1080p, but PS3 hasn't managed it yet either in it's launch titles. Perhaps we'll see it in the future as devs get to grips with PS3's capabilities but I predict most demanding titles will be running at 720p for some time yet.

As Icemage said, Marvel Ultimate Alliance and the NBA game support 1080p. Also, I think that Full Auto 2 and Ridge Racer 7 support 1080p.

[Pai Pai Master]

Re: Xbox 360 struggiling to push 1080p

There've been about 6 games on the PS3 supporting 1080p so far. Some games, like Ridge Racer 7, even manage a healthy 1080p/60fps.

Gran Turismo HD is one of the most amazing games I've ever laid eyes on, and it's running at a silky perfect 1080p/60fps. Although it is based on PS2 software, Tekken 5 Dark Resurrection on the PS3 also runs at 1080p/60fps. Upcoming games like Lair will also run at 1080p/60fps, and there are a large, large number of games coming this year that'll be doing at least 1080p/30fps. Kojima Productions has confirmed that Metal Gear Solid 4 will be 1080p, but it has not been confirmed yet what the framerate will be.

Considering we're talking native 1080p, games built around it and not upscaled like with the 360, it certainly seems that the PS3 is far more capable of it than the Xbox 360. Even if the 360's ANA chip does a superb job of upscaling games, it just cannot compare to the real thing. Games designed and developed for 1080p will always look superior to games designed for 720p and upscaled to 1080p.

That doesn't necessarily matter to me. I've played Gears of War in upscaled 1080p and it looks fantastic. However, it's worth noting that the game does still run at 30fps and the 360 does very well have trouble running games in upscaled 1080p/60fps (let alone 720p/30fps in some cases, but that's the fault of the developer in case, not the hardware), so from an observational standpoint, it's clear the PS3 was made for running games in 1080p/60fps if developers can get games like Gran Turismo HD doing it, whereas it's pretty darn obvious that Microsoft pulled out 1080p out of its butt at the last minute because they didn't expect Sony would be able to pull it off.

Does anyone remember Microsoft representatives actually stating that 1080p was "useless" this generation and that Sony wouldn't be putting out any 1080p games in 2006, and maybe even not 2007? Well, they were wrong, and they surely didn't put much thought about 1080p when they were designing the console, which proves Sony's point that the PS3 really is future-proof. 3-5 years down the line when most people are adopting 1080p technology and HD media, the PS3 will have adapted to that change far better, while Microsoft is prepping to release their third console (Blu-ray drive included) for release because they'd rather focus on the now than later when designing hardware.

As for your question about 1080p, Caspian, it depends on when HDCP is fully implemented, which could happen some time before 2010. Currently the PS3 does observe HDCP laws; you cannot use 1080p on the PS3 without HDCP-compatible HDMI or DVI, but it would seem that Microsoft has worked with them to work around this, since the 360 was built without HDMI input. If it's my understanding, you can actually get 1080p with component on some of the Blu-ray and HD-DVD players as well. However, the industry expects to see High-Bandwidth Digital Copy Protection implemented fully before the end of the decade, so that could spell doom for the 360's HD-DVD drive (and it would seem that the lack of HDMI is the defining factor for the HD-DVD drive's terrible sales thus far, as I certainly would buy it even if the drive itself had HDMI input stuck on it, if that were possible). Whether or not the 360 will be allowed to continue with non-digital 1080p come HDCP implementation is beyond me, but I don't think it's very likely.