Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

[Antivomit]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

First off, sometimes we as humans like to connect things together to make them easier to understand and to relate with some how. Any time some gets captured and then begins to relate to their captor does not always mean they are a victim of stockholm syndrome. Maybe they actually did understand where that person was coming from and actually could relate. Understanding is way more powerful of a virtue than just tolerance. You'll never really understand where someone is coming from if you just "accept" what they are saying. Now this sinerio is probably extremely rare, as most people that would rob a bank or hold people hostage are not the types of people that have that thread of innocence that makes them relatable. Most are just powered by greed.

Something else I need to rant on before I get on topic. Where did this rule that if you really really enjoy something, it means your addicted? Society has been consistently trying to delute emotions for sometime now. It all plays into the logic that if you don't feel strongly about any one thing you, you are easily lead. And then that splits into the "fear them - follow me" mentality, but thats a political debate. If anything, we as a generation, are all victims of stockholm syndrome. We have heard our parents, media, teachers, friends, coworkers, and relatives all feed this problem by making people feel bad about being different or having any form of strong emotion. I've seen reports on t.v. so many times about some "radicals" doing something "bizarre" and "crazy". Now, I'm not talking about extremist killing people. I'm talking about people that have new ways of thinking and doing things being shunned for it. Nothing good in history as ever been acomplished by doing things the safe way or normal way. And why do doctors prescribe so many mood altering drugs? Why is that normal? If over half the kids in America have A.D.D. then, technically, that is the normal thing. Just let people be unique!

Ok. With all that I am trying to say, that just because I want to spend a few hours a day playing a game. Well, so be it. That's what I want to do with my time. I would not kill or steal or lie to play the game. It's just what I would rather do instead of spending hours upon hours playing sports, watching t.v., reading books, watching movies, or any thing else "normal" people do. All in all, everything that people do is just ways to make times go by until they die. As morbid as that sounds, it's true.

[raidenn]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

Bender:
"Don't kill me yet! I think I'm starting to come down with Stockholm Syndrome... handsome!"

[samarium]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

Bender:
"Don't kill me yet! I think I'm starting to come down with Stockholm Syndrome... handsome!"

HaHAAAAH!



Not to derail the thread, I'll add my serious comments too:

The main difference between FFXI and... uh... being a hostage is that FFXI starts off being optional and enjoyable before it becomes an addiction and we feel a psychological need for it.

Much like drug use, it's recreational at first until one begins to feel that they can't live without it; they begin to plan their days and weeks around getting their fix. It's an addiction, and most of us know it and accept it.

It does not become our captor, I feel, because deep in our subconscious we know that we are free from it if we want it badly enough. Stockholm syndrome is more of a defense mechanism to keep from a psychotic break due to having our freedom taken away; they fool themselves into believing that they're here by their own choice.

Although I'm sure the two behaviors follow similar synaptic pathways and cause different lobes of the brain to react in similar fashions, (feeling a subconscious need for the object of our obsession) the triggers are vastly different. Both are obsessive behaviors, but one is defensive and the other is comforting, though we may not realize it.

P.S. All that said, I still want to slap certain individuals who make big dramatic statements like "I'm free from FFXI; brothers, seek freedom! I didn't know how addicted I was..." etc. etc. It's an enjoyable hobby; you're free to walk away from it as you please. They're confusing boredom with a valiant struggle with addiction.

-sam

[Hantz]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

It's just what I would rather do instead of spending hours upon hours playing sports, watching t.v., reading books, watching movies, or any thing else "normal" people do. All in all, everything that people do is just ways to make times go by until they die. As morbid as that sounds, it's true.

The way I see it is that as a society, we have reached a place where so many of our needs are provided with such little effort that we have to fill our time with activities/hobbies/etc. to deal with boredom. It's such a strange thing for me to try to wrap my head around, that we do so many things in our lives just for the sake of being busy. I guarantee we wouldn't think of video games as a valid activity if our lives revolved around building houses for all of our family/friends, making sure the crops didn't die, or making sure to kick some major buffalo ass before the winter came just to make sure we were all able to keep on living. But, life being the way it is, it doesn't seem like a waste of time to most people to wiggle some plastic squares and stare at a box. I'm not saying I think it's a waste of time necessarily; just that if we're going to get into the transitory nature of human life, I know playing video games won't be the thing I'm fondly remembering in the last twinklings of life.

I can completely understand what Dak is getting at with "productivity." A word like that is usually used in a work-type environment, so some people may get a little put off with it. But I think Dak's point was to illustrate how temporary life is. When I'm dead and gone, I hope my great-grandchildren won't be hearing about how much ass I kicked at Mega-Man 2. I hope they are hearing that I was a good man who was concerned with the well being of my family, that I worked hard to make their lives happy. I hope they can listen to songs I wrote and get something meaningful from them besides the usual "shake your ass" or "look at what a clever little turd I am" or any of that crap. That's productivity; "here's the knife my ancestor carried, here's a song he sang, that was my flesh and blood in action and we are part of each other." Maybe helping your future family members see that they are part of something bigger than their 70 years alone.

Last night I watched the home video of my family in 1985. I was 3 and my brother was 2. It was almost unbearable to watch all of my family members being so much younger, healthier, more vibrant. I'm older now than my mother was in that video. The whole time I was watching it, my kids were running around. It killed me to think that I was in the same position as them at one time and that here I am, an adult, and the 21 years in between had been like a lightning flash. My kids would be grown before anyone knew it. I'm not trying to preach, but if you see life as a stretch of time to waste before you die, and not as a chance to do as much as you can for everyone around you, then I'm a little sad for you. I'm not being a pecker-head; I just hope you can see that you have your chance to live now and you shouldn't feel like you're in the DMV line to the grave, playing game-boy to make the wait seem shorter. This is all we've got, brobro; take it and run with it while you can.

[Antivomit]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

Very good points Hantz. I feel like that sometime. The "lets make life meaningful" attitude. But it's so draining to do when your the only one that feels that way or you've been trying for years to accomplish something and every single chance that comes up gets stomped into the ground. We've all seen the inspirational movies that have some kids going on a road trip or starting up so make-shift buisness/team to do something they always wanted to do and live life to the fullest. The only problem is when you have that mentality at like 14 or 15 and then try your damnedest (sp?) to make something out of your dream for about 6 years to absolutely NO avail. That's kind of a downer. And you can feel life slipping away from your grasp as you sink further in to the bottomless pit of age until you become some old skin bag that can't wipe yourself. That's depressing. That's life. Now, Don't get me wrong. There is no stopping me from playing in this band (the dream I am referring to) and damn it, I will succeed in one way or another. But damn if I'm not gonna suck every thread of excitement I can out things I enjoy before I move on. Call it being addicted. Call in devoted. I just call it living.

[eticket109]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

Really you can apply the correlation to any activity, not just MMOs or FFXI. Though I don't see it as a vaild one. Stockholm Syndrome is often a more temporary condition that eases once the stressfull situation is removed. As someone else mentioned, it arises in a situation that is forced upon the hostage.

I agree that the addictive nature of MMOs is underplayed by most but I think it is unfairly focused upon as well. As I mentioned earlier, addiction can be applied to most any activity that is done repeatedly or in excess. Take something like jogging for instance. If done 3-5 times a week for a period of time, the body becomes used to the activity and develops a physical and in most cases physiological addiction. When someone jogs regularly and they miss a run, they are often lethargic or 'off' for that day or until the routine is resumed.

Video games have been given a negative stigma throughout history. Only for a brief time in the 80s and now in smaller quantities has it been socially acceptable to be a gamer. Video games are often pointed out as a great evil in our society and are greatly misunderstood by a majority of the general populace. Thus, the evil addictions of MMOs continually cycle in and out of mainstream news media as new games gain new popularity.

I'm not saying MMOs are not addictive. The fact is they are. Many things in life are. I have friends that complain they can't function if they don't have their morning coffee. I have other friends that go to the store every tuesday to buy the new dvds that week. I have relatives who spend 4-5 days a week at their church. These are all addictions to varying degrees. However, you don't see alarming news reports about this type of activity because they are deemed 'acceptable' addictions by the general public. When the addiction is video games or MMOs however, then the sky starts falling. This just falls back on the fact that games are misunderstood and mislabelled as 'unproductive.'

Yes FFXI is addictive. Yes, I'm probably addicted to it. However, as long as I maintain my life within my own philosophys and ideals, I'm just fine with that.

[Hantz]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

Very good points Hantz. I feel like that sometime. The "lets make life meaningful" attitude. But it's so draining to do when your the only one that feels that way or you've been trying for years to accomplish something and every single chance that comes up gets stomped into the ground. We've all seen the inspirational movies that have some kids going on a road trip or starting up so make-shift buisness/team to do something they always wanted to do and live life to the fullest. The only problem is when you have that mentality at like 14 or 15 and then try your damnedest (sp?) to make something out of your dream for about 6 years to absolutely NO avail. That's kind of a downer. And you can feel life slipping away from your grasp as you sink further in to the bottomless pit of age until you become some old skin bag that can't wipe yourself. That's depressing. That's life. Now, Don't get me wrong. There is no stopping me from playing in this band (the dream I am referring to) and damn it, I will succeed in one way or another. But damn if I'm not gonna suck every thread of excitement I can out things I enjoy before I move on. Call it being addicted. Call in devoted. I just call it living.

There you go, bubba. Looks like we're in the same boat (chasing that musical dream). I know exactly what you're talking about (I even dropped out of college to chase that dream, only to unexpectedly become a fairly young father shortly thereafter, further raising the stakes). See my sig for a glimpse into the craptacular website that supposedly represents my band. Edit: Ha! Maybe you better not. It looks like our drummer has decided to remake the whole thing and not tell anyone.

Yeah, that is a pretty hard path to be on while trying to stay positive, but that's what you have to do. I feel the last 6 years of working towards a seemingly unattainable goal, all the way to my bones. We just have to remind ourselves that we're working towards something that we feel is meaningful, and that that is time well spent. We're like cicaida larvae....

In regards to the game, I'm not calling anyone addicted. Like I said, even with all the other stuff you can do in your life, there's still downtime to relax and enjoy some fun and games. That's important to a point. I think the people that are truly addicted see it the other way around; like there's this game to play with some stuff to fill the time between playing sessions. I don't play too much, so I'm not sure what I'm talking about with all that, but I was really just responding to how bad you seemed to feel about life. Anyway, chin up, bro-caine. Fight the good fight, etc.

[Kitalrez]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

Well, first off I want to thank raidenn and samarium for the Futurama references, that was probably the best use of that episode yet.

Second, I think the two major questions we're wrestling with here in relation to FFXI are:

1. Is FFXI somehow comparable to Stockholme Syndrome?
2. Is FFXI an addiction we all share?

I think we've pretty much answered the first with a resounding 'no'. The second requires a more personal analysis, I believe. Are you addicted?

Think about it for a second, are you addicted to the internet? Most of us have to deal with computers all day long, so I'm pretty much going to assume we're all addicted to them whether by choice or not. Can you live without being online for at least part of the day? I'm going to guess that I probably am addicted at least to a small degree. If I head out to visit my grandparents this Thanksgiving, it'll be pretty unlikely that I bring my laptop along to surf the net. Without that, I pretty much know I'm going to be wondering if I got any email at least once or twice. Is that addiction or is that a simple force of habit? I'm gonna be safe and call it at least a small addiction, but I'll let you make your own decisions for yourself. I do plan to take my cellphone along with me, and I will be calling back home to check on my business partners at least once. It may very well be I've just succumbed to the new cultural paradigm of connectivity and virtual community that the internet and cellphones create.

Now that you've given yourself an example, think for a second about addiction. What does it mean to be addicted to something? If you go anywhere near the stuff are you addicted, or is there more to it? For example, I went to a halloween party a few weeks ago. During that time, I had a beer, a glass of single malt scotch, and two glasses of a truly wonderful concoction known as a "kilt lifter" (1 oz. Drambooie, 1.5 oz. Pinch, 2 oz. lime juice). I got fucked up. Does that immediately make me a binge drinker or an alcoholic? What if I told you that I only drink very occasionally, and the last time I actually imbibed was at another gathering two months earlier where I had about 2 pints of microbrew over dinner with friends? Does that make a difference? Does it make a difference that I had all this liquor within the first two hours of the party, and that I stayed for almost 8 hours? Or that I didn't go to the party specifically for the purpose of drinking, or that I only started because someone offered me one?

Ok, now that you've grounded yourself, think about FFXI again. How often do you log on? How often is too much? Look, I log on periodically throughout the day. I log on for about 5-10 minutes at a time, mainly to check on auctions or see how my chocobo is doing. I use it as a break from work, (pretty much the same reason I use these message boards), it gives me a second to step out of my stressful situation and think about something else. Does the fact that I do it count as an addiction all by itself, or does the reason for my usage mitigate the addiction factors? What about your usage? I think one thing you have to ask yourself is can you step away from the game for something that isn't direly critical? Almost all of us will put the game down for something critical, like a housefire, or someone drops something on your desk that has to be done immediately with dire consequences. How about for something that isn't critical, though? What if you just have to check the mail, or empty the dryer? Would you leave the game for something that you could just put off without major consequences, but you might like to get done sooner if you had your druthers? I think if you can disconnect yourself on a whim like that, you're probably not going to be labelling yourself as addicted to the game. You may drink, but you're not going to be on the recieving end of an intervention or wheeled off to a surprise AA meeting.

On the other hand, I do believe there are people out there with addictive personalities. But I also believe that there is a subconscious choice that they made as well. I don't believe that alcoholism is a disease. I deal with a lot of alcoholics, one of my best friends is one. In every one of these people, I saw them make a subconscious choice to drink like a fish. Whatever was going on with their lives was bad enough that they decided the bottle was worth crawling into to escape it. If you've decided you might be addicted to FFXI, are you escaping something? What are you escaping? Is it really worse than whatever the game supplies you as an escape?

MMORPGs have always garnered alot of bad press. Some of you will remember the Dateline/60 Minutes/Hardcopy/whatever story that ran a few years ago about the kid who killed himself because something happened to his Everquest character. That guy was clearly addicted, but his mother and the reporters chose to blame the addictive nature of the game itself. I mean, Everquest was a hard game to play, and required a buttload of time, but was it inherently addictive? I moved on to this game almost immediately after I found out it was coming out. If it was really as addictive as the "Evercrack" label had it, could I really have up and left Everquest like that?

There is a weakness of morals that goes into addiction to something like this game. Because I can tell you the exact moment I stopped drinking in the party example above. I was leaning on a railing with my glass in hand and realized that the only reason I was still standing was because the railing was behind me. At that point, I said to myself: "Ok, this stuff is good, but I've had enough for tonight." Then I reached over and put the glass down. If you've come to the end of my little soliloquy and have decided that you are addicted to FFXI, I want you to look for a minute at the glass in your hand. I think we both know where it goes.

[Antivomit]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

Wow. That had to take a LONG time to write. But, oh well, it was good

Hey Hantz, what style of music do you guys play? Where are you guys from?
I always like hearing about fellow musicians trying to make something out of it.

[Ziero]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

The key to life is moderation; too much of anything is bad for you. Anything can be addictive, it's more based on the individual personality then the actual object of the obsession. One of the methods used to stop alcoholism and illegal drug use is to get people to smoke, which though still an obsession is much 'safer' in the long run. Too much work, exercise, water, food, sleep, etc etc can all cause trouble for both the body and the mind of an individual, but those are all things people need to survive. FFXI, as stated before, is a hobby people enjoy. It's not a captor or a drug to many people, it's something to do because they find it fun to do.

A while back, the CEO of the company I work at talked about a story he once heard. It was about a business professor who tried an experiment to show how to manage time with his students. The professor had a few same sized jars, one of big rocks, one of small rocks, one of pebbles, one of sand, one of water and a much larger empty jar. The teacher then asked how many students think that he would be able to fit the jar of big rocks into the empty jar and the students all said they would fit. He poured the big rocks into the empty jar and every one of them went in without a problem. He then asked if he would be able to fit the small rocks in the same jar with all the big rocks. Some students said they would fit, others said they wouldn't. He poured the small rocks in and they started to fill in the gaps between the bigger rocks and they all fit. He repeated the process again and again with all the other jars eventually getting the pebbles, the sand and finally the water into the jar.

After everything was in the jar he asked his students what this all meant. He got a few blank stares then one student raised his hand to respond. The student said 'no matter how much stuff you had to do, if you try you could get it all done', to which the teacher responded 'wrong'. After a short bit of no more responses the teacher began to explain. He said that when managing time, you have to take care of the big things first. As the big rocks went into the jar first, the big things in life should be dealt with first. Those big things being family, friends and personal health. Once those are taken care of then you move onto the smaller things, such as careers and education, then personal responsibilities and then whatever else you enjoy. Get your priorities in order and you'll have more then enough time to do whatever you enjoy when you do get free time.

Yes life is short, but that doesn't mean we all have to have some great achievement for people to remember us. Your family and friends will remember you for who you are, and what you do in life is just a part of who you are. If you enjoy doing something that has no negative affect on your life then there is no reason not to do it, whether it be writing award winning songs or playing Megaman 2 for the ump-teenth time. A hobby is something you do for personal enjoyment, if you stop enjoying that hobby you stop doing it.

Me personally, I *like* playing this game. I don't log in because I have to or because I feel some strange desire to be the 'first' to do something in this game, I play because it *is* a fun game to me. If you feel you are in competition with other players or that this is more of a chore then an enjoyable experience then you should stop. No one forces you to play and the only thing that makes you play is yourself. Though I have many in game friends, and this might seem sort of mean to say, they are *not* the reason I log on every day. Though they do make the game more enjoyable, I can easily play without others to talk to because the game itself is something I like. Maybe it's because I do things my way as opposed to how others want me to do things, but I certainly do not feel that this game is my captor.

[Omni]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

A little quote I read once:

Time enjoyed wasted, is not wasted time at all.

[Hantz]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

Yes life is short, but that doesn't mean we all have to have some great achievement for people to remember us. Your family and friends will remember you for who you are, and what you do in life is just a part of who you are. If you enjoy doing something that has no negative affect on your life then there is no reason not to do it, whether it be writing award winning songs or playing Megaman 2 for the ump-teenth time. A hobby is something you do for personal enjoyment, if you stop enjoying that hobby you stop doing it.

Whoa nelly! There's no need to take it personally. I was responding specifically to Antivomit's statement earlier where he seemed to be feeling pretty low. I'm not saying anyone else has to achieve anything, grandiose or otherwise. I just know I would feel like a severe crap-crap if I checked my playtime and realized I'd spent 300+ days of actual condensed time of my life playing the same video game. I think a lot of us are spouting on about the same message: Keep it all in perspective, know when to put the glass down, etc. I was just getting a little long winded about the "big things" in life. I think there are a lot of people out there that honestly are lying to themselves about what constitutes an unhealthy amount of playing. But do I have a diagram on the wall with clear markers as to where healthy ends and unhealthy begins? No, because everyone's schedule is different. But I definately do believe that "no negative effect on your life" is a term some people try to stretch a little far in regards to MMOs. That's all.

[Kitalrez]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

Wow. That had to take a LONG time to write. But, oh well, it was good
Hey Hantz, what style of music do you guys play? Where are you guys from?
I always like hearing about fellow musicians trying to make something out of it.

Thank you, Antivomit, I appreciate the feedback. Although if you think it took a long time to write or read, you should really see the track I put into the carpet trying to come up with something to say in the first place.

[eticket109]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

Thank you, Antivomit, I appreciate the feedback. Although if you think it took a long time to write or read, you should really see the track I put into the carpet trying to come up with something to say in the first place.

lol

[Ziero]

Re: Stockholme Syndrom vs MMORPGs and other addictions

Whoa nelly! There's no need to take it personally. I was responding specifically to Antivomit's statement earlier where he seemed to be feeling pretty low. I'm not saying anyone else has to achieve anything, grandiose or otherwise. I just know I would feel like a severe crap-crap if I checked my playtime and realized I'd spent 300+ days of actual condensed time of my life playing the same video game. I think a lot of us are spouting on about the same message: Keep it all in perspective, know when to put the glass down, etc. I was just getting a little long winded about the "big things" in life. I think there are a lot of people out there that honestly are lying to themselves about what constitutes an unhealthy amount of playing. But do I have a diagram on the wall with clear markers as to where healthy ends and unhealthy begins? No, because everyone's schedule is different. But I definately do believe that "no negative effect on your life" is a term some people try to stretch a little far in regards to MMOs. That's all.

Never meant to seem like I took it personally, was just using your examples O.o

I know exactly how you feel about your music and stuff, I have an artistic hobby myself that I would love to make into something more. I've been drawing and writing stuff since before I was in middle school and I've wanted to make these ideas of mine into world famous, well known phenomenoms too but I won't be too dissapointed if I'm not remembered for my 'art'. I know how you feel about realizing just how much time we've all 'wasted' playing this, and other games. But as Omni quoted so well 'time enjoyed wasted, in not wasted time at all'. Because in the end, that explains why anyone does anything they consider fun. To enjoy what they have while they have it with who they have with them. Doesn't mean you can't still strive for a dream, it just means you should enjoy all aspects of the road along that dream as much as possible.