MMOs killing single player?

[Taskmage]

If you saw it, the recent Penny Arcade was about some premium-type additional content for Oblivion. In the podcast that concept led to a much more interesting (imo) discussion about how MMOs have changed our perception of the value of single-player games. I transcribed the relevant part here, with some editing for readability.

Tycho: But yeah, I guess I could tool around on that horse- but no one would see it!
Gabe: Yeah. See that's—
T: That's a fundamental problem—
G: something really, I dunno if there's like a- you could write a post about this or something, but ... seems to me, like I been playing a lot of Kingdom Hearts, y'know? And, MMOs have sortof ruined single player gaming for me. Like I'm investing all this time in Kingdom Hearts, but I feel like it's a—
T: It's wasted.
G: A waste. It's wasted time because no one else sees it. And it's not ...
T: There's two things. It isn't just that other people aren't seeing it, it's that it's not accruing in a permanent way.
G: I put so much time into WoW, and now I have my rank 10 armor I can walk around and people'd be like "Dude, check him out in his rank 10 armor," right? Like all that time I invested has this—
T: It's real. As real as anything virtual is.
G: Right, but I've been playing Kingdom Hearts every night and I'm—what am I now? Probably 25-26 hours into it?—and I love the game but I feel weird playing it.
T: Yeah. No, I totally understand it. And it's really crazy. Raph Koster: Do you remember meeting him? He was at one of those E3's. He the guy that designed Galaxies.
G: Oh, yeah.
T: So, he said—it was in some kinda speech, it mighta been at GDC, I don't remeber the context of it, but he said that—he called single player games an abberation.
G: Yeah.
T: Which most people took to mean that he was some kind of idiot, but it's sortof an interesting statement. Like, this was just this phase. Playing games by ourselves was just this phase, and we went through it like adolecents, and now we have graduated to connected social experiences that are persistent.
G: Right.
T: I mean, it's sortof a weird, broad-brush thing to say and the terminology was definately inflammatory.
G: Well yeah, he obviously said it to get a reaction.
T: And he did, but that is an interesting way to think about it.
G: There's something to that, yeah. I feel like, sitting there playing Kingdom Hearts, if I'm gonna spend four hours in a night playing a game, I should invest it in WoW where—
T: You can keep it.
G: I can get that rep with Erithor ...
T: So accruing abilities in an RPG context, that is not enough, like that is not satisfying enough for you?
G: No.
T: Like getting the new key blades and stuff like that ...
G: Well I mean like last night I got the new form, I got Wisdom, which is HOT.
T: What does it look like? W- Actually, maybe you shouldn't say it.
G: I don't want to spoil anything, but yeah. It's more of a magic form. He fucking flips out and does this crazy magic shit.
T: Like apprentice type shit?
G: Yeah. And ... it's awesome, but it's not the same feeling as getting the Krol Blade or something or ...
T: The rarity! Y'see that's the other thing. There is something that is dangerous, I think, and addictive about the rare drop. That just obliterates other types of gaming experiences.
G: Yeah. And I'm enjoying it for the story which I guess is what a single player game has to offer. This narrative, right?
T: Yeah. A richer narrative.
G: Yeah. I'm loving the story, but I do feel like my time— I feel guilty after a night of playing Kingdom Hearts, rather. Maybe that's just my own sickness ...
T: That might be it, but I mean it's just—
G: I can't be the only one that feels that way.
T: That time. That four hour block. And I know exactly what you're talking about ...
G: Yeah, I mean we both have kids.
T: ... is sooo valuable.
G: Yeah. I can play games from 8 to maybe 11:30 or midnight.
T: And when we're here, we've got shit to do. Y'know, we're actually doing shit. In some cases literally.
G: I think about that block of time ...
T: It must be invested in a way that will continue to pertain to your life.

I'm not sure where I am on this as it relates to MMOs, so I'll weigh in on it later. I will say that back in the day when multiplayer gaming was just becoming mainstream and I was playing Starcraft and Diablo with my friends every night, playing those games alone became kindof a cheap and empty experience. In retrospect, I have never spent as much time on consoles since then, other then for a few specific exceptional games.

I think it bears discussion.

[Intensity]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

I don't think so. I've always need everything and the best items in any game I've played. Gold chocobo in FF7, Lulu's Legendary Weapon in 10 (500 lightning bolts dodged in a row, you suck SE), 4D mode in Star Ocean, etc. I laughed at the strip when I read it yesterday, but I don't think it's 100% accurate. Maybe MMO's are ruining single player games for the people who PLAY MMO's, but to say they're ruining single player games for everyone? Nah. What does the guy that goes from playing Samurai Warriors to playing Oblivion think of his Horse? "Frickin' SWEET!" Unless he's ever played an MMO regularly, he's not gonna think twice about getting it just because nobody can see it. He's gonna get it because HE gets to look at it.

EDIT: Also, in regards to losing interest in games that don't offer conastant goals/upgrades in equipment. That's what's called replay value. If a game isn't constantly providing new places to explore and stuff to get, you're going to get bored. That's the only reason MMO's last so long for people, they're always offering new content.

[Jei]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

I think there are just too many bad single player games out there. You can go to the stores and find 90% of the titles totally uninteresting or totally suck when you buy it home.
There's no doubt we only pick up some big titles or the exceptionally good ones.

Like recently I picked up metal alchemist on PS2 and didn't spend more than 15 minutes playing before I got bored -.- those kind of games really discourage you from getting more games you know.

I found some games to only be enjoyable with friends too. like rythm music games such as guitar freaks. The game was so much fun when you go to party but playing it alone can be very very boring.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

I've been around a long time (god I hate saying that sometimes) and every new step taken in the industry amazes me. I've seen good things happen and bad things happen......I own E.T. the game, need I say more! LOL But the biggest thing I notice is that with each new generation of players comes a new outlook on the industry.

Now what I mean by that is, I love Pong. I mean I LOVE Pong! It's in my top 5 of games. Crazy huh? Most people play it for like 5 minutes and are like "OMG I'm so glad thats over!!". LOL But me, I can still play for hours, just like when I was a teen. Back then the console had the knobs attached to it and the cords were quite short. So the console was close to the tv, and I mean close, like 2 feet from the screen.


And remember this is back in the day of the old style floor standing tv's.


So there I was hunkered over this console for hours on end watching this little white ball go back and forth hitting this white line. I am also the baby of the family and my 2 eldest sisters were out of the house and the last sister left wouldn't touch that game with a 10 foot pole. So ya, I flew solo.....with Pong......for hours!! The best thing since sliced bread I'm telling you! I was a geek in progress!

Now you'll understand when I say that graphics don't mean much to me and games with all sorts of confusing button combinations don't interest me either. Ya, I'm WAY old school. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy all of the new generations of games out there because I am true blue dyed to the bone GEEK. It's just that I look at it from a different perspective.

Now fast forward to a new generation. Let's look at young people that are around 13 let's say. They have an entirely different take on things! Pong for hours to them = NO F'IN WAY!! They didn't go through my experiences and see things the way I do and on that ground we will never meet. Does it mean they way they see things are wrong? Oh heck no, they are just living a different perspective than I am. They are used to eye popping graphics and arthritis aching confusing button combinations. To them THAT is the game.

So when we delve into the mainstream multiplayer realm, the gamers that have been around longer might be saying "I can enjoy a game offline just as much as online." whereas you have the newer generation saying "Oh heck no, MMO is where its at now pops!" The game industry bends to the whims of the next gens. If they want multiplayer then so be it. It sells the games/systems and thats where the money is at.

Do I feel good that offline players might be on the outside looking in one day? No, not really. While I've played more than my fair share of MMO's, I'll always be an offline gamer by default. But the thing we have to remember is that times change things. I've seen it happen over and over in 3+ decades of gaming. MMO's or games with some type of online component might be the ticket right now, but in 10 years that all can change. Which way it will change remains to be seen and I, for one, hope I'm here to see it.........again.

[Brayden]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

FFXI has killed single player RPGs for me. I find that I when free time presents itself, I'd rather sit down to FFXI than my other unfinished/unplayed SE games.

[bikkebakke]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

I'd have to agree with Jei. MMO's aren't necessarily killing single player games, it's just that there is a serious lack in quality single player games. I have actually enjoyed maybe 2 or 3 titles in the past 3 years... 2 of em being KH and KHII lol

[Intensity]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

Eh, I still play single player games and I've played FFXI since NA release. Black and White 2, F.E.A.R, Fable the Lost Chapters, Star Ocean (All battle trophies obtained so far up to halfway through Universe Mode. 4D is going to be insane.), Prince of Persia Two Thrones (Oh man, HIGHLY recommended), and a few others between. Think Kill Zone was bought/played all the way through within a year ago.

And all of these have kept my interest from start to finish. I've been discouraged with a few Battle Trophies on Star Ocean but not to the point where I get bored. Just makes me want to play more usually. lol

[DakAttack]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

I don't think I've ever played a video game alone. I usually have friends over hanging around and such. It sucks playing video games alone.

[kuu]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

Some people pay premium to goto a resort where they turn off clocks, phones, and all outside communication.

Some people pay premium to goto the loudest, most crowded, and dazzling hot spots.

And you know what sometimes it's the same group of people.

There are times you want company and there are times you don't...games are no different.

On the arguement of "showing off". Single playing game, you're the hero of a story. In MMO you're one among thousands of heros in a story...Unless you got a skull thicker then a dinosaur...it's bound to effect your sense of self.

[Tirrock]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

After FFXI, the number of console games I bought went down dramatically. I've probably bought 5 console games since summer 2003. I never really thought of it as "if nobody else sees it, what's the point?"...although I do think that there is a bit of logic in that.

[Tsikuro]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

Yeah, I absolutely agree with Tycho and Gabe. Towards the end of Kingdom Hearts 2- I've obtained Ultima Weapon, Fenrir, and the Final Form, which was fully leveled up-- but it felt somewhat empty, because, I knew I was right at the end of the game, and I spent all this time to obtain all of these items, and now there is no use for them. Whereas, in an MMORPG, there is no end... In FFXI, you go to Dynamis, get your full AF2 set, but you can come back- you can go back to that town where you started, meet new people, and still find new ways to interact with the same environment. It's really an interesting thing.

Some games, like Final Fantasy XII, just feel utterly wasted- they created such an immense world for that game, literally, huge, and once you're through the 60 or so hours of gameplay, it's over; there's nothing left to do in that world, and all of your accomplishments disappear, in a way.

[dirtyclown]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

I dunno, I don't really see MMOs taking the place of console games anytime soon. To be honest, I'm starting to grow out of games in general. I sit down and hang out with my static party three nights a week and that's fine, but I can't really stand alot of new games. It feels like console developers have stopped trying to innovate and are just rehashing the same boring shit and just placing new labels and subtitles on the box covers.

Throughout the week when I want to play a game, I just turn on my modded Xbox and select from a list of hand picked classics, games that are innovative and fun and insanely difficult. I can't think of the latest console game that really struck me as difficult. Console games are in a state of decline at the moment, and hopefully developers will realize this before it's too late. My Xbox is nothing more than a glorified emulator. I didn't buy it new, but still, that thing is capable of bludgeoning a person to death and all it's good for is running roms.

MMOs usually keep me interested for a few months and I take a break and try out something new, or wait for an expansion to try out new content. Most of the time online gaming devolves into trash talking and e-penis waving, and that's the kind of stuff I dislike. Playing RTS games over the internet quickly lost their appeal after beating someone fair and square and getting accused of being a hacker. Same with every online FPS I've ever played, the biggest offenders being Halo 2 and CS. If that's how gaming is going to be in 10 years then I'm going to stop gaming. Sorry for the essay.

[Taskmage]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

There's something to be said for the other thing Tycho pointed out. What you do in an MMO accumulates in a "permanent" way.

I play basically two kinds of games. Shooters, pure ones like sidescrollers and UT where there's no other component but the action, for the xen, and RPGs for the story and because like Tycho, I have this OCD hoarding impulse in games. I have to get all the items and max everything out. When I played ChronoTrigger I collected enough tabs to max the stats of every character - even strength on Marle and Luca. I got all the celestial weapons in FFX, too. I like to build things up. But then when I'm done (forcing myself to avoid a sexual metaphor ><) the experience is over. Yeah great, I've reached the zenith for that game but in doing so I've destroyed the value the game has for me. Milked it of that last ounce of entertainment value.

With FFXI there is no "done." At least, not one that I'll ever attain at my rate of play. I don't have that letdown of the act being over and the shimmer fading. I don't ever have to discard what I've built up and start over from square one.

What's more, aside from the presitige of other people seeing your accomplishments, in an MMO environment your accomplishments do other people good. The more powerful you become, the more you build up, the more you can help others do the same thing and the more they can help you. It's continual positive feedback for the natural desire to progress.

Double Post Edited:
Btw, the idea wasn't so much that MMOs are killing single-player games on store shelves or in development so much as they are undermining our appreciation of purely single-player offerings by presenting us with what is arguably a better investment of our time: a shared, persistent experience.

[Icemage]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

I don't think that the MMO trend has significantly impacted the overall market for single player games.

Hardcore gamers "tend" to like MMOs, but we don't represent the majority - only the most passionate. There are a lot of gamers out there who (a) don't have time for MMOs (b) think MMOs are a big waste of time (c) aren't interested in socializing while playing a game, or (d) don't have an internet connection that will properly support an MMORPG.

This is why games like The Sims and Oblivion still manage impressive sales. Sure, they don't take in the sort of raw revenue that a game like World of Warcraft or FFXI pulls in, but they cater to a totally different market. Many of the people that play those games will never set foot in a MMORPG because it just isn't their cup of tea.

Audience markets aren't a zero sum game. Saying that MMORPGs are killing the single player game market is like saying action movies are killing the market for dramatic films. Both types of games have different things to offer, and people play them for totally different reasons, which rarely overlap.

Of course, there is the case to be made that there are people who used to play single player games solely because there were no multiplayer options, but I do think most of that grouping has pretty much sorted itself out by now, and it certainly doesn't spell doom for the single player game genre.

/gets on soapbox
Now, on a different note, Jei's comment about terrible games is a totally different discussion entirely. Being a hobbyist game developer myself, I have some pretty strong views about that topic. Too much to go into here, but if you're curious about what it's like to develop a game from the inside out and aren't afraid of a few big words, you can read about some of my views on this in my blog:

My blog: Musings on the Gaming World.

/gets off soapbox

EDIT: Aside to Taskmage... It's important to note that MMORPGs offer only the ILLUSION of permanancy. All MMORPGs will eventually fade and shut down as their player base erodes - the minimum necessary playerbase to hold most MMORPGs open is estimated to be around 30,000. When the number falls below that, the game dies, the servers shut down, and the characters and game worlds go byebye with them. Just ask the folks who've played one of the MMORPGs that have died over the years, such as Asheron's Call 2.


Icemage

[Intensity]

Re: MMOs killing single player?

UT where there's no other component but the action

Unreal Tournament?

Pinball Rocketlauncher mod 4 life. I still love that game.