What games are you currently playing?

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Goes without saying in a 2D platformer, though in the towns where its more relaxed I use the analog stick. I've not shied away from the optional Platforming challenges I've come upon yet but that's a testament to Juan learning so well from Samus Aran, Mario and Super Meat Boy.

Mmm... I don't think that's a fair comparison. Guacamelee does use the scroll-in-any-direction level design mechanic, but the requirement of chaining powers together for platform navigation isn't really borrowed from any of the games you mentioned. Juan is much closer to Zero in the Megaman X series in that sense than Metroid, Mario, or Super Meat Boy.

---

Soul Sacrifice demo is great. One full chapter, replayable with a save game that can be carried into the full game once it comes out. Awesome controls, cool upgrade/crafting and much more streamlined gameplay than, say, Monster Hunter.


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

I don't have a Vita or I'd be all over that...

Inafune's new game looks pretty sweet. I'm digging Pandora's Tower more & more, though it's reminding me a bit of why I hated Majora's Mask >.>


The chain mechanics are a bit confusing at first, as the game doesn't properly explain them and the initial tutorials are extremely limited (and not even in the proper order or labelled properly...)

Not sure if XSeed half-assed this or what.


EDIT: Okay, despite the annoyance of no Y-axis inversion, I do believe I've gotten the hang of the game's mechanics so far. Ice, if you're having any issues let me know but don't give up on this game, it's pretty good ^_^

For one thing, I've pinpointed exactly how to get flesh - when they're glowing red (and this really only helps for mid-sized monsters or larger - the tiny little grey guys always give crap) make sure you wrap the chain around their torso, and then hit B - you'll get flesh every time. Going for the head gets me fangs (well, from the dogs anyway) and I haven't tried targeting arms or legs yet. It's not easy to target specific limbs unfortunately but as far as I can tell the game is rather generous with regards to time when they're in their dying throes (red glow).


Also, I get that it was only the first boss, but dear God what a pansy - I didn't take a lick of damage from him. Guarding is also decidedly garbage, as at most you'll block a couple of hits and then your guard breaks. For whatever stupid reason you're completely invulnerable when dodging so dodge liberally. Usually most games force you time dodges right or at least move out of the way lol, but even you get "hit" as long as you're in the dodge animation you're fine...

Kinda OP really.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Mmm... I don't think that's a fair comparison. Guacamelee does use the scroll-in-any-direction level design mechanic, but the requirement of chaining powers together for platform navigation isn't really borrowed from any of the games you mentioned. Juan is much closer to Zero in the Megaman X series in that sense than Metroid, Mario, or Super Meat Boy.

Metroid scrolls in any direction. Mario and Meat Boy have the same exact wall grab and slide, while Mario has face shifty platforms in real time as seen here. Chaining abilities occurs in both Metroid and every post-SOTN Metroidvania. Guacamelee's only distinction is that its all tied into a brawler skillset.

As for Soul Sacrifice - it doesn't seem like anything to write home about and its sluggish camera controls, terrible presentation and drab use of colors aren't helping it. The character creation options are very basic and aren't even reflected in cutscenes outside of flashbacks (Dark skinned woman? Doesn't matter, you're still a white dude in a cell). For a game about sorcery characters are very dudebro Gears of War kinds of muscular. Even the chicks have necks the width of oak trees. The option for leaner-looking characters, along with more customizable character design options would have been nice. Also, its rather annoying when a game is literally begging you to use the touch screen, it creates the idea that touch is still this gimmick while games like Sumioni: Demon Arts are much more natural about the use of it.

To its credit it does distinguish and save itself from from being another would-be Monster Hunter clone in how it looks and plays, particularly by way of its Save/Sacrifice mechanics and custom skill sets in addition to armor-building and such. Still, this game feels like something that could have used a bit more time in the oven to refine some of its rough edges. Its not something I'd rush out and buy Day One, but wait to see if Sony puts it up for free on PS+ rather than spend money on it.

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Metroid scrolls in any direction. Mario and Meat Boy have the same exact wall grab and slide, while Mario has face shifty platforms in real time as seen here. Chaining abilities occurs in both Metroid and every post-SOTN Metroidvania. Guacamelee's only distinction is that its all tied into a brawler skillset.

Juan has a much larger traversal move set than Samus, Mario, or Meat Boy in any of their respective games. Also, I don't recall any of those games needing combination moves at a level of complexity that is on display in Guacamelee. Some of the Metroid and Mario games have platforming that is very particular about timing and/or positioning (and Meat Boy literally revolves around it), but none of them to my recollection require you to chain multiple different traversal moves together in quite the same fashion... namely because they don't have the large traversal toolkit.

Granted, there's a ton of Metroid and Mario games and I haven't played all of them, so maybe you can point out a case where you need to do similar antics to what is necessary in Guacamelee?

As for Soul Sacrifice - it doesn't seem like anything to write home about and its sluggish camera controls, terrible presentation and drab use of colors aren't helping it. The character creation options are very basic and aren't even reflected in cutscenes outside of flashbacks (Dark skinned woman? Doesn't matter, you're still a white dude in a cell). For a game about sorcery characters are very dudebro Gears of War kinds of muscular. Even the chicks have necks the width of oak trees. The option for leaner-looking characters, along with more customizable character design options would have been nice. Also, its rather annoying when a game is literally begging you to use the touch screen, it creates the idea that touch is still this gimmick while games like Sumioni: Demon Arts are much more natural about the use of it.

To its credit it does distinguish and save itself from from being another would-be Monster Hunter clone in how it looks and plays, particularly by way of its Save/Sacrifice mechanics and custom skill sets in addition to armor-building and such. Still, this game feels like something that could have used a bit more time in the oven to refine some of its rough edges. Its not something I'd rush out and buy Day One, but wait to see if Sony puts it up for free on PS+ rather than spend money on it.

It's not perfect, but I found it compelling enough to spend 4 hours with the demo. I can't remember the last time I spent over an hour with a demo prior to this. Maybe Patapon?

Couple of counter-points:

What slow camera? The only time you need a fast camera is if you need to focus on an enemy, and there's a Lock On button for that (L).

What required touch controls? They're 100% optional except for page-turning during story sections and gear setup. You can "fast forward" past the exposition by turning pages before they're finished, and I think there a button configuration that will let you move spells around too without the touchscreen. I never once used the touchscreen in combat when playing the Soul Sacrifice demo, and the other uses make sense and aren't overbearing at all.

P.S. SumiOni's touch controls are necessary but janky as hell. Not the best example to use as your support argument.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Juan has a much larger traversal move set than Samus, Mario, or Meat Boy in any of their respective games. Also, I don't recall any of those games needing combination moves at a level of complexity that is on display in Guacamelee. Some of the Metroid and Mario games have platforming that is very particular about timing and/or positioning (and Meat Boy literally revolves around it), but none of them to my recollection require you to chain multiple different traversal moves together in quite the same fashion... namely because they don't have the large traversal toolkit.

Granted, there's a ton of Metroid and Mario games and I haven't played all of them, so maybe you can point out a case where you need to do similar antics to what is necessary in Guacamelee?

Speedrunning and shinesparking in Super Metroid, Fusion and Zero mission Spring to mind, Spring ball + Bomb for higher jumps in Metroid Prime. Many other instances of it in various Metroidvanias. Mario Galaxy 2 had levels that required you to shake activate walls and platforms amidst wall jumps and sometimes even triple jumps (comet levels in particular).

What required touch controls? They're 100% optional except for page-turning during story sections and gear setup. You can "fast forward" past the exposition by turning pages before they're finished, and I think there a button configuration that will let you move spells around too without the touchscreen. I never once used the touchscreen in combat when playing the Soul Sacrifice demo, and the other uses make sense and aren't overbearing at all.

I believe I emphasized "gimmicky" here. "Wipe my eye! See? I have a touch screen, isn't that cool?"

Just because something is there doesn't mean you have to contrive ways to use if if you don't want to, short of MGS HD collection, Persona 4 Golden, Sumioni and Unit 13, I can't think of a Vita game that doesn't go there with the touch screen. This was a symptom of DS games at first, but you'd think after nine years of that and six of smartphones and tablets that we'd have gotten over this by now.

[Ketaru]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Not playing it yet, but recently got the sudden desire to play Final Fantasy IV again. Been whistling the Red Wings theme over and over.

[Malacite]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

^_^ 100% campaign achievements in Heart of the Swarm!

Now back to Pandora's Tower & Growlanser IV (can't decide who to replace for Leona! >< I like everyone in my party except for Remus, but he's just too good as an Archer...)

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Speedrunning and shinesparking in Super Metroid, Fusion and Zero mission Spring to mind, Spring ball + Bomb for higher jumps in Metroid Prime. Many other instances of it in various Metroidvanias. Mario Galaxy 2 had levels that required you to shake activate walls and platforms amidst wall jumps and sometimes even triple jumps (comet levels in particular).

I'll let you come back and revise your opinion once you complete the Tree Tops level in Guacamelee. That section has some seriously mind-twisty and finger-twisty platforming; I almost wish there had been more of it. Then again, if there had been more, I might have burst a blood vessel, haha.

I'm not saying there's not great platforming in those games (of course there is, they're famous for it), or even combination move platforming, but all of those examples are an order of magnitude lower in complexity than the optional stuff in Guacamelee. That doesn't mean they're necessarily easier (precision/time requirement is not the same as move complexity), but those games - as I said - don't have the potential combination move sets that Guacamelee does, so they can't pull the same sort of level design tricks by definition.

Timing precision = difficulty, not complexity.

I believe I emphasized "gimmicky" here. "Wipe my eye! See? I have a touch screen, isn't that cool?"

Just because something is there doesn't mean you have to contrive ways to use if if you don't want to, short of MGS HD collection, Persona 4 Golden, Sumioni and Unit 13, I can't think of a Vita game that doesn't go there with the touch screen. This was a symptom of DS games at first, but you'd think after nine years of that and six of smartphones and tablets that we'd have gotten over this by now.

Again, what's the big deal? Every single one of those touch activated features can be activated with sticks and buttons on the Soul Sacrifice demo, and honestly none of them are what I'd call egregious offenders, especially compared to some of the stuff pulled in games like Uncharted: Golden Abyss. If you don't want to touch the screen, you literally don't have to.

It's only a terrible gimmick if it either doesn't work at all and/or is required (see: Twilight Princess' terribad waggle sword combat). Stuff you can ignore and do more efficiently, especially where the motion option actually isn't an impediment, shouldn't get this sort of virulent criticism.


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

So I'm on the 4th tower now - unfortunately I took way too long in the 3rd, trying to do it all in 1 sweep and well... it wasn't pretty when I got back to the Observatory ; ~ ;


Letting her transform really, REALLY murders your affinity with Elenea, but then trying to get through the towers using up half the meter at most each time is quite a pain in the ass. I want to go flesh farming for Leots but blah....

Really wish they had just given you an option to auto-exit the tower instead of having to use an item to do that (which is a bitch to get).

[Firewind]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Again, what's the big deal? Every single one of those touch activated features can be activated with sticks and buttons on the Soul Sacrifice demo, and honestly none of them are what I'd call egregious offenders, especially compared to some of the stuff pulled in games like Uncharted: Golden Abyss. If you don't want to touch the screen, you literally don't have to.

It's only a terrible gimmick if it either doesn't work at all and/or is required (see: Twilight Princess' terribad waggle sword combat). Stuff you can ignore and do more efficiently, especially where the motion option actually isn't an impediment, shouldn't get this sort of virulent criticism.


Icemage

For a first attempt at it, I thought that AC III Liberation handled things very well. The stuff wasn't perfect but the use of cameras to see hidden things was an interesting touch.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

It's only a terrible gimmick if it either doesn't work at all and/or is required (see: Twilight Princess' terribad waggle sword combat). Stuff you can ignore and do more efficiently, especially where the motion option actually isn't an impediment, shouldn't get this sort of virulent criticism.

And here's your poor example. Twilight Princess was a launch title and used motion control when it was new and developers were looking for ways to explore it. That's really different from when you're pulling out rookie-level design a decade into touch-based gameplay elements. We don't need elements from Feel The Magic XY/XX in the touch-based devices of today. Touch is not new to gaming anymore, Vita developers need to stop acting like it is.

[Malacite]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

So I'm the only one still playing PT I take it?

whimps

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Well, I don't have a Wii anymore, but thankfully 3DS and Vita have enough for me to play right now.

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

And here's your poor example. Twilight Princess was a launch title and used motion control when it was new and developers were looking for ways to explore it. That's really different from when you're pulling out rookie-level design a decade into touch-based gameplay elements. We don't need elements from Feel The Magic XY/XX in the touch-based devices of today. Touch is not new to gaming anymore, Vita developers need to stop acting like it is.

You've still yet to outline what exactly about the touch controls you hate about Soul Sacrifice. Page turning makes sense and works perfectly. Wiping tears works too, and it's not exactly difficult. Even Save/Sacrificing works if you're into the immersion, especially as you're locked into the animation and can't do anything other than control the camera until you either cancel or it completes. Drag-and-drop skills is faster and more efficient than button navigation. Mission and menu selection is faster with a single touch than multiple button presses. Even better, not a single touch command is mandatory (edit: except for Dark Rite activation, but you can only use it once per battle, and it's in the corner right next to the left stick, so... ok?). So what is there to dislike about it?

I understand about terrible touch/motion controls when they don't make sense (Steel Batallion: Heavy Armor), but Soul Sacrifice doesn't offend any of my gamer sensibilities, at least in terms of gameplay or control. Frame rate is good, controls are smooth, combat is hefty and strategic and isn't hampered by any touch commands unless you want it to be.

It does have flaws, mind you. The art style is quirky, a bit hard on the eyes at times, and occasionally downright ugly. The resolution feels short-changed a bit (somewhat fuzzy graphics), and the voice acting feels pretty bland. None of that influences the gameplay, though, which feels pretty well tuned.


- - - Updated - - -

So I'm the only one still playing PT I take it?

whimps

The game doesn't scare me in the least. I think it's got its heart in the right place, I just detest that chain mechanic. Monkeying with the right stick while trying to do action combat with the left stick is awkward as hell.


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

It's probably a lot easier with the Wii mote, but it is kinda like trying to look in 2 directions at once isn't it?

I've gotten the hang of it just fine though - I'm already 1/2 through the game I think, I just finished the Ironclad Tower (so 5/12 Master Flesh). Around 1/2 up the bond meter too for Elena. It's annoying as hell, purposely trying to avoid her transforming even into her 1st stage but you pretty much have to if you want to get her relationship up high enough for the S-rank Ending.

Besides, and this is minor spoilers I guess, but certain gifts you give her are incredibly expensive to repair if she transforms after you've given them to her.