What games are you currently playing?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

All I know is when there when there games coming out with TONS of content that sell millions of copies and don't need online passes is that we have proof that:

- Online passes are not needed
- Tacked-on multiplayer is not needed
- Most "DLC" is not needed, as expansions work just fine

EA has set up Amalur to fail. Its an unproven IP, doubt is cast on it by publisher and consumer alike just for the inclusion of the online pass. All I know is this TES IV's lead designer's baby. I'd hate to see it fail for him and his team, but at the same time the day people shut up and take this as normal is the day EA, Sony and THQ have succeeded with it. So I'm going to keep on bitching about it because publishers are destroying opportunities for developers I could like.

Why play KoA when I still have 200+ hours of content left in Skyrim to uncover before the expansions come out? Seems I'm already getting a better value here.

Also, this:

Jimquisition: Trying to kill piracy makes it stronger -Destructoid

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Pissing and moaning is always annoying, but I just don't buy that last part. Any supplier will take as much money as customers are willing to give. I sincerely doubt that if those people you're complaining about bought the game, you'd be spending less; you've already proven you're more than happy to shell out $X for a game, so they'll happily charge you that much even if the game's selling like hot cakes.

That's really the wrong way to look at it though. At the end of the day, it still costs $X million dollars to make a game. That money HAS to come from the people like me who are buying the game new, or from secondary purchases like greatest hits/price drops/additional DLC, because the used market contributes effectively 0.

I would understand the bitching if developers were awash in profits, but they're not (except for the small handful who have really successful games; i.e. Blizzard, Bungie, etc.).

For the developers who are not in that top tier of huge sales, those guys need some way to recoup their development costs, and that is why the used market and piracy are "bad" (I use quotes here because it's a relative term) - because it doesn't punish the big blockbuster games. It punishes the niche games and studios that would otherwise be successful and self-sustaining.

I don't want to walk into a game store and have the only things I can buy be Call of Duty, Skyrim, and Mario.. Because if developers don't figure out a way to break even or turn a profit on a game that isn't a guaranteed AAA blockbuster, we're not going to see anything BUT mass market fluff and cheesy shovelware, because all the smaller studios will have gone under.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Then why do Atlus and XSeed do so well?

Probably with timely localization, keeping budgets within expectation and treating the customer like a king rather than a peasant. Crazy idea but it usually works.

Smaller studios are not doing online passes because they know its a death sentence if they do. Only the biggest of the big publishers do it and even then its just a handful - EA, Sony, THQ are your prime offenders here. Its not small studios running scared, they're already just retreating to handhelds, browser gams and AppStore stuff. There's a less-risky model for them out there and they're adapting more quickly than big publishers are. We didn't even have a huge indie scene before this generation, but its what the downloadable market has brought us.

Super Meat Boy and Binding of Issac would have never happened last generation, but they do now.

I'm not going to shove money into EA's hands just because I'm afraid there might be fewer unique games to put on shiny discs.

[Armando]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

That's really the wrong way to look at it though. At the end of the day, it still costs $X million dollars to make a game. That money HAS to come from the people like me who are buying the game new, or from secondary purchases like greatest hits/price drops/additional DLC, because the used market contributes effectively 0.

But as far as I know there's a more-or-less standard price for any new game. It's not set in stone, but the trend is there. Also, the amount of money the developer invests is their own business. They know the standard price of a game and they can project a certain number of buyers. If they want to blow millions on the game...that's on them. Nintendo's games are proof that you don't need to blow a Hollywood budget to make a game that looks good and plays well, and indie games are proof you don't need a gigantic budget at all to be profitable.

I think the obsession people currently have with huge budgets and photorealistic graphics is far more dangerous than piracy right now - and the consumers are just as guilty of that as the devs. The HD craze is what's guilty of creating an environment where people feel they need insane resources to make a successful game. Piracy has always been there, it's just convenient to blame narrow profit margins on it now. I'm not saying it doesn't need to be taken care of, but it's not the real problem.

Also, Louis CK's experiment and the general success of the Humble Bundle are proof that people will pay for DRM-free shit.

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

So you have Atlus and XSeed on one side the equation, who are more or less hanging on by hanging onto those first-day buyers through promoting customer loyalty...

Where are Free Radical (TimeSplitters), Bizarre Creations (Project Gotham), Factor 5 (Rogue Squadron), Luxoflux (Vigilante 8), and dozens of studios like them that produced mostly fantastic games and hit ONE commercially tepid game and closed down? The way things are going now, we're not going to have any more independent developers, because the moment any independent slips up and produces one less-than-groundbreaking product, they're going to go out of business.

Look, I totally understand that people can and do have a choice to buy used. I also totally understand that it's aggravating that the way things are, you don't get the same content as someone who buys new.

What I do not understand is this attitude of "well, MY hands are clean, it's not MY fault that companies on the fringe aren't doing well, it's just their business practices and their anti-consumerism that doomed them." That may be part of it, but when you've got a ton of people out there openly saying "Well I don't think this game isn't worth a day 1 buy, I'll buy it in six months when it's in a bargain bin", at least part of that blame for studio closures can and should be pinned back onto the consumer. When too many consumers drift into this category, and no one is left who thinks like I do, what then happens to Atlus and XSeed and all these other guys who are at least holding their heads above water? They go away, that's what. And then you get fewer games.

I want more games to play. Not less.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

That may be part of it, but when you've got a ton of people out there openly saying "Well I don't think this game isn't worth a day 1 buy, I'll buy it in six months when it's in a bargain bin", at least part of that blame for studio closures can and should be pinned back onto the consumer. When too many consumers drift into this category, and no one is left who thinks like I do, what then happens to Atlus and XSeed and all these other guys who are at least holding their heads above water? They go away, that's what. And then you get fewer games.

This isn't really a new practice though. Why pin the blame on this practice now? Also, didn't BBQ post another video of that Jimquisition guy argumenting that publishers are conditioning people to do this? Prices on games bombing a month after release and Game of the Year editions giving you all the DLC for less. Being an early adopter has always been a bad bargain for the consumer and with all the DLC and shit games are coming out with now, the bargain's only getting worse.

Not to mention, just like you argue it takes a certain amount of money to make a game, most people only have a certain amount of money to buy them. If I bought every game I wanted on day 1 I'd go broke. It's not in my budget. I get the ones I really want and the rest just have to wait.

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

This isn't really a new practice though. Why pin the blame on this practice now? Also, didn't BBQ post another video of that Jimquisition guy argumenting that publishers are conditioning people to do this? Prices on games bombing a month after release and Game of the Year editions giving you all the DLC for less. Being an early adopter has always been a bad bargain for the consumer and with all the DLC and shit games are coming out with now, the bargain's only getting worse.

Yup. But heaven forbid that developers push back and give day 1 free DLC bonuses to early adopters. HOW DARE THEY! /sarcasm

They're trying to find ways to give people a good reason to buy new, so they can stay in business. Because new games are the only ones they can make any money on. But no, it's of course that they want to punish people for buying used, amirite?

Is it a perfect or even a good solution? I have no idea, but it's at least "a" motivator to get someone to buy one game instead of another one that might come out that same day.

Not to mention, just like you argue it takes a certain amount of money to make a game, most people only have a certain amount of money to buy them. If I bought every game I wanted on day 1 I'd go broke. It's not in my budget. I get the ones I really want and the rest just have to wait.

As I said above, I completely understand. Everyone has a budget. I have a budget, too. I make a decent living, but even with how much I love video games, and how much of my budget goes to my gaming hobby, I can't afford to buy every single game that comes out that looks vaguely interesting. So I pick my battles by buying the games that are from studios that I think will continue to make good content in the future.

What I don't do is delude myself into thinking that I'm not contributing in some way to the problem if I deliberately choose not to buy a promising game day one in lieu of a more mainstream game that doesn't technically need my support (see: BBQ's rationale about Skyrim vs. Kingdoms of Amalur above).


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Yup. But heaven forbid that developers push back and give day 1 free DLC bonuses to early adopters. HOW DARE THEY! /sarcasm

I don't think anyone seriously believes developers concoct these draconican concepts into their own games. Why is it Naughty Dog will tell a sob story of why they HAVE TO do this while David Jaffe just apathetically shrugs and says "If it happens, it happens." I can at least argue Jaffe made an effort to add value to his product by getting Twisted Metal Black as a bonus to the next Twisted Metal game so the Online Pass is a touch easier to swallow, but that's not what Naughty Dog did, they just threw that online pass to cut people out of the multiplayer.

Here's the problem with Uncharted 3 - the online pass is cutting Naughty Dog out of potential Season Pass/map pack buyers. Everyone was going to have to buy that stuff anyway if they liked the multiplayer. UC3's multiplayer is a reasonably good time - wouldn't you want people to spread the word about it and buy those map packs?

You see, here's he message Sony is sending - Want multiplayer? Buy new. Want single player? Buy used. They're conditioning people to think this way and you can actually see this in Hot Shots Golf for Vita. They have two downloadable versions as presenting the choice of with or without multiplayer at differing prices, but with the retail version - there's an online pass and if you want the multiplayer you have to pay in.

And I can't think of many people that want online multiplayer for a portable golf game, so Sony is fucking themselves and retailers on the retail end there.

They're trying to find ways to give people a good reason to buy new, so they can stay in business. Because new games are the only ones they can make any money on. But no, it's of course that they want to punish people for buying used, amirite?

Then they need to listen to David Jaffe and American McGee and not field ideas from the boardroom. Give people a whole extra game and that online pass thing becomes a bit easier to sympathize with because there's actual, real value added. Don't promise them software that was meant to be in the game anyway shortly after release because we've all become conditioned to know its bullshit and just withheld from the game for a sale.

What I don't do is delude myself into thinking that I'm not contributing in some way to the problem if I deliberately choose not to buy a promising game day one in lieu of a more mainstream game that doesn't technically need my support (see: BBQ's rationale about Skyrim vs. Kingdoms of Amalur above).

How people buy their games is not "the problem" - charging $60 and adding no real value to your product is a problem. Making me back out of the game to input a stupid fucking code or set up an origin account is a problem as these are things I shouldn't have to do.

Should. Not. Have. To. Do. Period.

They whole damn point of owning a console is to slide the disc into the system and start playing. An installation is one thing, but all these other hoops to jump through are BS. I am not here to prove my loyalty to the Almighty EA and assure them I bought their game how they wanted me to buy it. That should have ended with the transaction in retail.

Skyrim might not need my help with its 5-6 million copies sold, but it send a message to Zenimax that Todd Howard was right and they don't need to crank out one of these games every two years. That four years in development is fine and you're sure to have like 5 million people buy it and the expansions. Seems good enough for them. Bioware has been reduced to annual releases, forced multiplayer, online passes, day one DLC and has the quality gotten better? Not if DA2 or TOR are any indication. ME2 wasn't even that great.

[Malacite]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Yup. But heaven forbid that developers push back and give day 1 free DLC bonuses to early adopters. HOW DARE THEY!

Which is exactly what SE has done with FF13-2 : In Japan anyway.

The rest of the world be damned.

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

How people buy their games is not "the problem" - charging $60 and adding no real value to your product is a problem. Making me back out of the game to input a stupid fucking code or set up an origin account is a problem as these are things I shouldn't have to do.

Should. Not. Have. To. Do. Period.

They whole damn point of owning a console is to slide the disc into the system and start playing. An installation is one thing, but all these other hoops to jump through are BS. I am not here to prove my loyalty to the Almighty EA and assure them I bought their game how they wanted me to buy it. That should have ended with the transaction in retail.

You say the online pass thing is unnecessary: I agree with you. It's silly and short-sighted. And yes, it's a small hindrance. What's your proposed alternative? Left to their own devices, used game discs without an online pass produce a continual multiplayer presence that needs to be supported with servers and development manpower to maintain, but no income stream to pay for it. So what are the other options?

-> Develop less single player content so that more of that $60 goes toward supporting multiplayer?
-> Increase the cost of the game to bake in more of that cost up front from the consumer?
-> Lose money on it and go out of business because?

Developers have to pay for these things out of their own cut out of that new game sale (which at the end of the day is less than half of that $60), or alternatively take an even smaller cut and let the publisher pay for the servers, so it's not accurate to say "well someone paid for it when that game disc was sold new". I've been saying that there are a limited number of new game funds to support all of these things, so the question is, if you toss out the idea of online passes, what replaces it, and is it better/worse?.

EDIT: Note that "Well, it's never been this way before!" is not a valid response either. These sorts of DRM features and add-on content are showing up because there are an ever-increasing number of games that require online servers for multiplayer, and they appear to be a direct response to the question of "How do we pay for these servers to stay up?" Your alternative is to go back to having the publishers shut down the servers completely after a year or so, such that no one can play the game online at all. Is that a better solution?


Icemage

[Nestama]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Final Fantasy XI - Was looking for the wyvern egg in "The Holy Crest" quest, but eventually gave up... and silently swore after using the instant warp scroll. My homepoint was set in Bastok D:
Assassin's Creed II
Project Zero III
Tales of the Abyss 3D - I've been waiting for this game to come out for SIX YEARS. I'm happy to finally play it.
Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga

Will eventually start a second playthrough of Persona 4, just to fight Margaret.

[Armando]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

-> Develop less single player content so that more of that $60 goes toward supporting multiplayer?
-> Increase the cost of the game to bake in more of that cost up front from the consumer?
-> Lose money on it and go out of business because?

Player-hosted servers, or not adding online multiplayer compulsively to every game I guess.

[Kailea]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Well Soul caliber V and (god...) FFXIII-2 are out as of today. I am getting SCV but I am waiting on XII-2 as I did with XIII, I will get it much later when it drops.

As a gamer that came from the two button days...... I hate all this crap that many others seem to hate as well.... all this online pass, register with this program, have to buy new or buy a code bull crap. If I want to support a game, I will buy it new, these codes and other hoops do not help at all.

[Squiggs]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Final Fantasy XI - Was looking for the wyvern egg in "The Holy Crest" quest, but eventually gave up... and silently swore after using the instant warp scroll. My homepoint was set in Bastok D:

Isn't it all the way on the east side of the Spine in MeriMount? Just around the edge of it I believe.

[Feba]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Player-hosted servers, or not adding online multiplayer compulsively to every game I guess.

This. There are so many games that die because companies aren't willing to have player-hosted servers. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that you could make a pretty penny starting up a hosting company which, instead of websites or data, hosts games; go around to companies buying up old titles they no longer want to support online, run the servers, patch the games so people can play again (obviously this won't work for console games), and then just charge people some monthly fee to join your servers to play all of their favorite old games.