What games are you currently playing?

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

And I never encountered the Other M door bug - but its still there for the people that have encountered it. I've had it happen three times now and as auto-save happy as the game might be its still time wasted. At any rate, its been mentioned in a number of reviews and co-op players seem to see it even more often.

Another gripe I have about this game is no ability to customize the button layout - which is common for the 2D half of this genre post-Super Metroid. There's some finger gymnastics here that the default layout just isn't built for - but its the only one you get. There are also some platforming challenges where you could viably use Goat Uppercut to shortcut, but the game rigs it so it changes to Dashing Derpderp every single time no matter how hard you press Circle + Up to uppercut. Its one thing to forbid sequence-breaking, but invisible-walling it in a viably open vertical area is rubbish.

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So Goat Fly, Shift, shift, wall grab, wall run, double jump, shift, DJ, shift, DJ/shift x4 (Jump/Dashing DD/Shift x4 also works) when Wall Grab, Wall Run, DJ and Goat Uppercut could have done the same thing and yet the game converts the uppercut to Dashing Derpderp because they don't want you to go that way. When a game won't follow its own rules and punishes players for being clever, that's never a good sign.

I've also seen some instances of jumps I shouldn't be able to make even with the uppercut and yet the game gives you a slight nudge to get away with it anyway, probably because they didn't want to redesign and lower the platform just enough to fix it.

^ I have never, ever had the game not give me access to the appropriate move if I haven't used it yet in that jumping sequence. Bear in mind that as soon as your feet leave the floor, you can only use each special move (double jump, uppercut, dash) aside from Goat Fly and Goat Run once before landing again. Wall-grabs don't reset your moves. Did you use the Goat Uppercut before grabbing the ledge on the left?

Also a fun side note: Those spike walls on the left with the spikes on the top as well? If you're really brave and really careful there is one (1) pixel of tolerance where you can just barely step on the edge and not get hit by the spikes. I've done it by accident a couple of times, but am not nearly good enough to do it on demand so I don't use that trick, but it's there if you need it.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

^ I have never, ever had the game not give me access to the appropriate move if I haven't used it yet in that jumping sequence. Bear in mind that as soon as your feet leave the floor, you can only use each special move (double jump, uppercut, dash) aside from Goat Fly and Goat Run once before landing again. Wall-grabs don't reset your moves. Did you use the Goat Uppercut before grabbing the ledge on the left?

Also a fun side note: Those spike walls on the left with the spikes on the top as well? If you're really brave and really careful there is one (1) pixel of tolerance where you can just barely step on the edge and not get hit by the spikes. I've done it by accident a couple of times, but am not nearly good enough to do it on demand so I don't use that trick, but it's there if you need it.


Icemage

Nowhere in the game does it mention power moves don't reset on wall grabs, but I guess that's why. Its still incredibly lame to restrict players that way when when the meter regenerates - they should have not let that used bit of stamina regenerate to communicate that limitation better. The second tier of that zone is a royal pain in the ass that almost made me throw my Vita a couple times.

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Nowhere in the game does it mention power moves don't reset on wall grabs, but I guess that's why. Its still incredibly lame to restrict players that way when when the meter regenerates - they should have not let that used bit of stamina regenerate to communicate that limitation better. The second tier of that zone is a royal pain in the ass that almost made me throw my Vita a couple times.

By the time you get towards the end of the game you've got 5 or 6 boxes of stamina, so I imagine that's why they don't let you re-use abilities. Otherwise some of the platforming with those mechanics would be dead simple.

I wasn't aware that games had to hold your hand regarding things like power usage. A little experimentation would have given you the answer (or did you never try two uppercuts in a row to reach a higher platform? That was one of the first things I did, and immediately discovered it didn't work). Heck, as I recall the game even makes Juan flash yellow and gives you a buzzer signal to tell you that you can't use a specific move (trust me, ran into all sorts of problems with this in Treetops).

Pro-tip: There's also one chest that requires a completely undocumented technique, incidentally. It's in the desert, and you have to block while using Goat Fly to get to it. That one took me a while to figure out.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

AGAIN. prior to that Tree Tops challenge there are Zero instances laid out to suggest that it couldn't be a viable strategy. I was aware the moves had a limit but then comes along Goat Fly which can be used back to back to back until you've drained stamina and you never have to touch the ground to reuse it. The thing about a Metroidvania isn't that you have to point this out to the player so much as give them an instance almost right away to show you what a thing can do - but remain internally consistent with the laws you laid out.

Guacamelee does this in most cases, but then makes exceptions to their own rules. The truth is they put the limit there so Fly and Climb didn't go to waste - but that would be like the people behind Metroid limiting what you could do with bombs just because you can pick up the High Jump boots later. In the games that defined the genre, it just doesn't happen, in fact, you're given tools early that could break the sequence through player skill while Guacamelee makes you reliant on most of the power-ups you come across.

This video gives some good examples of what I'm talking about.

[Malacite]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Or using the hyper booster to do a super jump to get to areas where you'd otherwise need the space jump for?

I do miss that aspect about some older games, where if the player was skilled/creative enough, they could bypass certain requirements or break the sequence.

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

I don't get the whining. You know there's a perfectly valid way to get from point A to point B, then whine then you misunderstand the rules (because you didn't research it, just like you thought you could just buy your way to max life/stamina). Then you take your misunderstanding and misconstrue it as an incorrect assumption that there are invisible walls in the game. And somehow all of this is the fault of the game design instead of you jumping to conclusions.

Yet if everything was explained in detail, you'd probably be there complaining about too much handholding.

Why do you not complain about this sort of thing in Fire Emblem, which I know you love, but is full of bullshit hidden mechanics?

P.S. to Mal: I pointed out one of those hidden tricks above, where you can stand on the edge of one of those spiked platforms, so the potential for abuse is still there if you're good/lucky. And yes, if you manage to make it work, you can actually do the exact trick that BBQ illustrated once you're standing on the platform and get your moves reset.


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Cool. I haven't actually played Guacamelee yet tbh, I was just making a general statement.

Ugh, so The Last of Us has been stalled yet again apparently until June 14. Looking forward to Metro, Last Light next month though. Back to Growlanser I guess while I wait for phase 3 of the ARR beta.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

I don't get the whining. You know there's a perfectly valid way to get from point A to point B, then whine then you misunderstand the rules (because you didn't research it, just like you thought you could just buy your way to max life/stamina). Then you take your misunderstanding and misconstrue it as an incorrect assumption that there are invisible walls in the game. And somehow all of this is the fault of the game design instead of you jumping to conclusions.

The whole problem, which I've illustrated in detail - is that the "perfectly valid" way is the ONLY way and the rules you claim I misunderstand are not internally consistent. That spike trick? Yeah, try eyeballing that one on the PS Vita - not happening. Fly and Climb can abuse the full stamina meter without hitting the ground but Dash, Uppercut, Headbutt and Slam are limited to one use while airborne. Additionally, because of this inconsistency Fly and Climb gain the properties of Uppercut and Dash where they could have had their own blocks to smash as they are the closest this game gets to shinesparking and really only used for endgame and challenge purposes.

They could have easily found other ways to restrict players from abusing Uppercut and Headbutt in particular - like Stamina cost. I mean, to this day Samus can only drop three Bombs concurrently and the first has to detonate before she can start again - and yet skilled players can use that to amazing effect.

I focus one this more because its a genre a really love. I can't really find these kinds of problems in other 2D Metroidvanias. I was pretty harsh on Metroid Prime 3 while I played it. There were a ton of level design element and weapons that just felt unnecessary and lacked the nuance of the prior games and much of it was the same kind of lazy design found in Guacamelee. This is a game that contrived three power-ups for one gameplay mechanic - the grapple beam - and then there are those awful Hunter ship puzzles and beam-stacking (which had a point in the 2D Metroids, but not in Prime 3).

Other M wasn't without its problems, either, but gameplay-wise it was largely consistent if waaaaay too scaled back for my liking. Breaking up energy tanks into Heart Container- like pieces was a pretty awful idea and the game not being all that difficult to 100% the first time. That before the host of problems with the presentation, story and structuring of power-ups. It had a decent story premise with some consistent reasoning but horribly inconsistent writing to back it up.

Why do you not complain about this sort of thing in Fire Emblem, which I know you love, but is full of bullshit hidden mechanics?

What are said "bullshit hidden mechanics?" This is a game that just actively wants to kill you in the Dark Souls way and gives you every tool you could possibly need to avoid that. I have noted that FE Awakening shied away from Fog of War (or at least I did somewhere0 and I did notice much of the magic wheel had been done away with - but its still not a game where i should let the paladin frontline or send out peg knights ahead of everyone else. The DLC does boarder on the potential of being abused, but then, so do some of the other world map elements. This is the only installment of the series with a non-linear world map, random enemy spawns on and the ability to grind at all. Much of this also exists to facillitate the relationship-building mechanics with the most infectiously charming cast of characters in an JRPG since Persona 4.

At the end of my run I still lost three people. Two fliers and an axeman. That and I ended up leaving Frederick - my starter paladin - totally behind most of my units. The problem in prior games was that paladins were so necessary to draw fire, but that they could also easily kill whatever attacked them in an adjacent square. They weren't invincible mind you, but they could soak up a great deal of damage before devour your crew's EXP potential - so you had to be careful about how - or if - you deployed them.

And I'll toss SMT Nocturne on the pile just for the sake of argument. I love this series for its difficulty and not wanting to waste the players time. From its inception, this series been obsessed with that concept - which is why the auto battle and negotiation are steady features. That I can talk my way out of a fight and potentially gain an ally, item or healing is really awesome and unique from other RPGs. Fusion, however, its not the bed of roses you've come to lavish in during Persona 4 Golden, but one of thorns. If you've played Persona 3 or P3FES they're just about as terrible on Fusion as Nocturne and Devil Summoner; RK Vs SA on PS2 are.

Rather than being able to select the traits you pass on (barring class or tiered exclusives), they were randomized - so you got to enjoy cancelling and starting over time and time and time again to get a fusion result just the way you wanted it (provided no fusion accidents occurred as that's very, very rarely a good thing, though getting that Shiva with Hassohappa + Pierce was wicked awesome. Still, the system was incredibly tedious and were it remade today I would hope it would get the refinements that P4G, Devil Survivor 2 and even Soul Hackers have enjoyed.

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Anyway, I finished Guacamelee last night, got the best ending and I still think its a great game, if just barely an 8 out of 10 for its nagging issues. Still working on Soul Hackers (it'll be a bit on that) and started Thomas Was Alone yesterday.

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

The whole problem, which I've illustrated in detail <snip>

Translation: "I thought I was being clever and am annoyed that the level designers actually did a good job at not letting me cheat at their challenge. How dare they make me actually go through things the hard way?"

What are said "bullshit hidden mechanics?"

Luck as a stat?
Stat growth rates and maximums?
Hidden support mechanics, like Chrom's marriage silliness and "Companion" support status?

All of these aren't documented well (or at all), are pretty prominent "features", and all tangibly impact gameplay.

----

Finished The Walking Dead Season 1. Awesome stuff.

2 more days until Soul Sacrifice. Gave up on Pandora's Tower for now. I've got less annoying ways to spend my time. I think I'll put some more time into Spec Ops: The Line. Really interesting storytelling in that game; really a shame that no one bought it.


Icemage

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Translation: "I thought I was being clever and am annoyed that the level designers actually did a good job at not letting me cheat at their challenge. How dare they make me actually go through things the hard way?"

BBQ's actually right on this one. If the devs want you to play a certain way, they should at least make the effort to be clear about it. Otherwise it's just bad design.

If nothing else, they could've extended that platform to the left so that it's obvious that "oh darn, looks like I'll have to go around."

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

BBQ's actually right on this one. If the devs want you to play a certain way, they should at least make the effort to be clear about it. Otherwise it's just bad design.

If nothing else, they could've extended that platform to the left so that it's obvious that "oh darn, looks like I'll have to go around."

What are the rest of the platforms to the right and above if not a clear hint as to where you need to go? Seems clear to me, as the assumption is that "if it's on the screen, it's probably important."

Also, extending that platform to the left would change the nature of the puzzle, as you could then just double jump to the platform in the upper left once you reached that platform pointed at by the red line (i.e. makes it easier if that happens).

EDIT: In case I need to be more clear, there's a big difference between seeing no way forward because game mechanics weren't explained and you're just stuck, versus being pissy about having to take the path that is clearly marked as the challenge.


Icemage

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

What, you mean the obstacles to hinder him going that way? I don't see how that conveys a clear message at all. "You can try going this way if you want, but I don't know why you would if you didn't have to."

Also, just extend it even further to the left than that.

[Icemage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

What, you mean the obstacles to hinder him going that way? I don't see how that conveys a clear message at all. "You can try going this way if you want, but I don't know why you would if you didn't have to."

Also, just extend it even further to the left than that.

When was the last time you saw platforms in a platformer that were just window dressing? And see my edit. If you extend that platform, it changes how you approach the platform on the upper left. As it stands, it's just barely out of double jump range (i.e. intentional).


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

Gave up on Pandora's Tower for now. I've got less annoying ways to spend my time.Icemage

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What games are you currently playing?

When was the last time you saw platforms in a platformer that were just window dressing?

GW2.

Also, your edit doesn't address BBQ's point that the platform is a mistake in design that, apparently, got a ham-fisted remedy. I don't see how you're not seeing what's wrong with that.