*sigh* Xbox360

[little ninja]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

most likely i will bewaiting for more titles to come out. that is unless they come out with games im looking forward too,

[berzerk]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

neh yeh part of me is changing my mind to put this on halt. I mean the system can totally suck and here you rush to get it out on the 1st day (that wasnt implied to anyone)

People at school were telling me PS3 was going to be better in all these ways, they didnt really name which was though. Also, i heard a rumor PS3 was held to 2007

[kuu]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

We don't know PS3 dates beyond around E3 launch(where? JP only or NA or wherever).

And we don't know how much Xbox360 will be available. World wide release is sucidal usually, and M$ backed off on that by a few months. They decided to skip the holiday season for JP and EU, which is actually smart because JP hates xbox and have a fairly cold-shoulder to 360, and EU never sells well on launch it seems.

PS3 may follow the rivially of 360 and do a E3 in JP, and NA , or sooner if they decide they can't wait for the holiday season(Oct, Nov, Dec).

Last time M$ had premade off the shelf stuff, and can easily increase supply(though thier cost hit them back in the end), but this time it's all custom made. So it's much harder to do any big releases.

PS3 has it slightly easier then M$ since Cell processor is ment for more then PS3, and IBM fishkill is probably crunching it out as well as Sony's own resources. So they have more economics of scale. Whether the motherboard, and Nividia's components are lacking, we don't know, but usually, the CPU is by far the harder part in supply issues.

PS3 seems a better position to do a "world wide release" then 360 for most intent an purposes, but business wize, it's always smarter to seperate it, and if anything Sony knows business.

[Macht]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

Yeah, me personally I can't wait for that PS3. Xbox360 you can be certain I'll be one of the last to buy it if ever. The PS3 though the more I read on the cell technology the more I keep saying "I got to have this!" as long as what the simulations and actual production is saying is true about them.

If it is then it seems to be Xbox 360 (evolution) vs. PS3 (revolution). In either case both are going for the similar type of boost, increasing the system processing power by increasing the number of cores. PS3 is from all the statements will simply be better because it gets around the "Diminishing Returns" issue were Xbox 360's design just basically brute forces it's way through the issue.

Honestly though in the end which would you really preffer, having to keep upgrading your motherboard and cpu so it can take 2,3,4,8 cores while all still being stuck around 4GHz since that's the basic limit thats been reached (and declared by most of the industry the best you can get out of the design). Each time doubling those cores not getting back as much processing power.

Or would you prefer a system that it's definition of upgrading (being that around 4GHz is it's limit) would be to just to add another device to your system. Not only are you getting a performance boost but also a new device that'll have it's own uses. It takes care of the diminishing returns by that each new device with cell technology is almost like just adding another core, but now it also isn't only limiting to 1 device getting the benefit but it benefits all other devices.

I'm so intrested into seeing how this cell technology goes, the theory and idea is just incredible. Also if they do find another metal or design that can up it beyond 4GHz by the current measuring system, then it still doesn't disqualify the design of the cell technology. So much I'm intrested to see about this, not only what looks to have tremendous potential for processing power but also it's energy consumption.

Other part of the problem that makes Dimishing Returns so undesirable is that with each core you have going the more energy it's pulling. So energy wise I'm intrested to see if Xbox 360 can match the PS3 or if it's going to be an energy hog sapping the equivalent of like 3 60-80 watt lightbulbs to the PS3 1 45-55 watt lightbulb equivalent. Which is another beauty of cell technology lot of processing power with even less energy use.

[Caspian]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

Other part of the problem that makes Dimishing Returns so undesirable is that with each core you have going the more energy it's pulling. So energy wise I'm intrested to see if Xbox 360 can match the PS3 or if it's going to be an energy hog sapping the equivalent of like 3 60-80 watt lightbulbs to the PS3 1 45-55 watt lightbulb equivalent. Which is another beauty of cell technology lot of processing power with even less energy use.

I'm guessing this is more of a business standpoint than a personal use one? Unless you were running your console 24/7 I couldnt see it taking any noticable more energy on you electrical bill.
Are cell processors supposed to be taking the place of the standard processor in use today on pc's?
Kuu, you mentioned they hadnt announced a date yet on ps3. I thought they said it would be spring of next year? Did I just make that up or did they change it?

[kuu]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

I'm guessing this is more of a business standpoint than a personal use one? Unless you were running your console 24/7 I couldnt see it taking any noticable more energy on you electrical bill.
Are cell processors supposed to be taking the place of the standard processor in use today on pc's?

No cell processor are not taking place of any PC we know of because PCs...shall we say... give free rides to code monkeys.

You have to understand modern PCs today are joined at the hip with OSs, and modern OSs are join at the hip with easy of use, which pretty much means bad coding or what is now modernized to "middlewere" where you interact with the OS and not the hardware itself. If you know the theories of what java is thought on, it's pretty much that line of thinking.

Back to Cell. This means that Cell in it's current form is underdressed for the above needs. That is why traditional CPUs like Pentium are big and beefy with lots of "free ride to developer" stuff. Well it won't stop the Cell technology itself to evolve to accomodate it, but as of now, it's staying the lightweights that cater to other purposes.

The 2nd problem is that MS windows is *ahem* POS program model and other OSs aren't really that well fit either. Sure they can be ported, but they were never thought about under the cell theory drawing board.

If you need an OS that can join with Cell, there would be A LOT of ground work to cover. Oh you can port it, but that's not the same thing. MacOSX and Linux being more intellectually sound programing design are better equip in any case. Professional projects tend to write...not so neat code...to meet schedule and speed deadlines.

Technology is always changing, lots of work on different materials have been in various stages of testing, but currently the mhz barrier is on the horrizon, and things need to be thought differently, is what Cell does.

Don't mistake that as "must" as there are many other options, such as spinning off more "specialize" processors like our video cards or "GPU", back in the late 80s it wasn't heard of, till someone decided that a specialize FPU sounded good. Alreadly we have seen this with MMX, SSE, Altivec. Maybe in another 8years some form of Altivec(parallel processing) will become yet another GPU like card.

Kuu, you mentioned they hadnt announced a date yet on ps3. I thought they said it would be spring of next year? Did I just make that up or did they change it?

The word stands at next years E3... JP, NA, select areas? Make of that what you will. May is still "Spring"

Oh one note down the rumor mill will be that the revolution is going to use a special PPC daughter chip to do it's physics crunching.

Xbox360 is turning out to be the sterotypical M$ "don't rock the boat" system.

BTW: Anyone noticed that games like MGS4 graphics(proven realtime) and techniques are just destorying 360's game graphics? I almost laugh when elder scrolls got reviewed as "Best graphics ever" after seeing MGS4.

Those interested can read kojima article on the cool things he's doing on the with MGS4 made possible by PS3.

I don't hate the 360, probably pick one up if it can get some more titles I like out there, but "technical achievement" award it didn't win.

[Caspian]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

Thanks kuu, good stuff to know (though a great bit of it is over my head, I'm a biology major, what can I say?).
Yeah, 360 is definately a "dont rock the boat" system. Like Macht said, more evolutionary and revolutionary. Ofcourse other than the original windows making user friendliness on computers a new thing (if you consider that revolutionary) they havent really done anything you'd call revolutionary.
So, if 360 is a next-gen console, what do you call the ps3? next-next-gen?

[kuu]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

Thanks kuu, good stuff to know (though a great bit of it is over my head, I'm a biology major, what can I say?).
Yeah, 360 is definately a "dont rock the boat" system. Like Macht said, more evolutionary and revolutionary. Ofcourse other than the original windows making user friendliness on computers a new thing (if you consider that revolutionary) they havent really done anything you'd call revolutionary.
So, if 360 is a next-gen console, what do you call the ps3? next-next-gen?

Not really what I call revolutionary... and even then, revolutions can fail and fail badly. We can't predict futures.

Technology tend to borrow and improve apon another, by intention or not. Transmeta about 5 yrs ago tried to make a revolutionary chip that has familarity to the Cell. They failed and fail miserably. Perhaps the needed helping technology then wasn't ready, or they just didn't have as talented engineers. IBM+Sony+ Toshiba spent a lot of R&D, and took a lot of their home brewed, tried and tested ideas into Cell. Like IBM's thought on simiflying the instruction window was straight out of thier G5 book. But there are many similarities.

Kinda like the how PS2 never made it as a "home enterntainment center" due to lack of broadband, power needed to run apps, developers, Sony's own stupidity, etc. It was an idea ahead of its time. The PS3 takes up the mantle of PS2's ideals.

Where one failed another might suceed by building apon it.

[Macht]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

Yeah, don't think I could say it better then that kuu. So far though from how it looks PS3 may succeed were PS2 failed. Also I love the realtime graphics that the PS3 can do, IGN has quite a few for show including the MGS4 one. God they are so nice looking and so seamless I can see why there would be a group of people that can't believe it to be realtime.

As far as OS support with Cell though all I've really heard is that Linux's design was so well for that it was on the Cell simulations before anything of the actual hardware was even done. Outside of that just reports saying that Cell will work fine with any OS, and even allows you to run simultaneous OS for stability tests and OS development.

[ZeR0]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

can't wait for 360
definitely going to get the full package
and i will be awaiting for FF11 to come out for it
now i can finally play it
wow i just now realized, that i was here when this forum started claiming to play ff11 when it comes to PS2 and got dissapointed and never played
this gives me hope

[DakAttack]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

Xbox games have been so-so lately, nothing spectacular. Xbox 360 better not be a huge letdown.

[Blood Red Poet]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

PS3 (revolution)

Sony never ever makes their own stuff. They just steal.

[kuu]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

True and untrue.

Everyone steals from everyone and then tries to improve on it. It's a hipicritical thing(especiall with US's corrupted copyright laws) to say, but it has drove the western world for centuries.

Sony though, didn't really steal that much, since most of it was their own by partnership with nintendo. You have to remember playstation was a joint effort, until nintendo backed out, and Sony decided to finish it themselves.

This PS lead to PS2 which lead to PS3.

At least Sony isn't blatantly obvious like MS windows stealing(or buying) tactics. M$ may of won a court case years ago that they didn't steal from Mac, but even to this day, a month after Mac OS had a rubber duck as a user log in picture, you find it in windows only flipped as their user log in picture.(joke )

And you're thinking like a copyright lawyer out to make money(-.-) Rumble pack and analog sticks is likemaking a ball after seeing a circle, a natural extension.

Heck Sony + Nintendo + All other companies got hit with a bill because the rumble function WAS patented by some unknown company and WON.

[Smasholays]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

That image is humorous. I wasn't aware Nintendo created the analog stick. I guess all those arcade games, and ataris that used it were make believe. Stole 3rd party developers? More of like the 3rd party developers wanted to make games for a system that wasn't hard to program for, and the media type didn't cost a lot. What game has rare made after n64 days that was great?

Regardless, besides the 3rd party support, none of those issues is what kept Nintendo in 3rd place. Nintendo is stubborn, maybe if it worried less about piracy and more about 3rd party support it would stop being in last place. I'm tired of seeing Mario whored out in every game they can come up with.

[kuu]

Re: *sigh* Xbox360

That image is humorous. I wasn't aware Nintendo created the analog stick. I guess all those arcade games, and ataris that used it were make believe. Stole 3rd party developers? More of like the 3rd party developers wanted to make games for a system that wasn't hard to program for, and the media type didn't cost a lot. What game has rare made after n64 days that was great?

Regardless, besides the 3rd party support, none of those issues is what kept Nintendo in 3rd place. Nintendo is stubborn, maybe if it worried less about piracy and more about 3rd party support it would stop being in last place. I'm tired of seeing Mario whored out in every game they can come up with.

They did and they didn't. It depends on our very archaic copyright and patient laws. Atari made the analog stick, but Nintendo and Sony (both probably were in the works at same time) made it a dpad like 360, thumb size. I believe Nintendo got theirs out first. At least to market, not sure about the patients.

Who invented, though is a stupid question, as our laws are very stupid in that respect of modern techology.

It heeds very little attention to pre existing techologies ideas under the "Natural extension of ideas" Like the the invention of the wheel to carts to horse drawn carriages to cars etc. What is worse, it's usually done under a clerk and stamp, which patient filing system rarely checks up on, so you end up with stupid court cases 5yrs down the road for patient attacks.

To put it in perspective, read some of the arcticles of everyone from Al Gore(yes our vice president) to Microsoft, to unamed companies that have 3 employees all claiming to have invented the internet, or parts of it.

It goes like"
"I invented the file explorer in windows98"
"I invented the Hyperlink"
"You called it the hyperlink, I invented the idea of a external directory call from an current access"
"I was working on unix systems before you graduated college!"

And the list goes on.

These problems have gotten worse as now every company is patienting everything, to ensure they can't be sued, or to sue...yea it's a mess.

If anything, the analog stick, i.e. joystick, should be acredited to the military as their controls of fighter planes... as it's the first multibutton controller, that enable angle movements in 2d or 3d.

But yea a good cutoff point is atari, since they have brandname on it. goto wiki =p.