The Next-Gen War has Begun!

[TheGrandMom]

Re: The Next-Gen War has Begun!

Neh, the recent one? Ah, I must have missed that article. But who knows, maybe ppl willing to plop 400smakers on this beat wont mind getting a HDD. Of course, thats not saying we wont be dissapointed =/ One again, it seems that while lacking in games, Microsoft is doing pretty good in functionality, and that's all the difference. . .

Ya, its the Sept. 2005 issue. It's on page 8 "8 Things You Don't Know About PS3...But Probably Should". I'll post them for people that don't receive the mag or don't read up on the PS3 that often.

1) No more memory cards. They are going with the Memory Stick Pro Duo just like the PSP.

2) The peripheral's of the PS1 and PS2 will not work with the PS3. Well, until someone makes a PS2-USB adapter.

3) The specs aren't set in stone.

4) The HDD won't be for games.

5) The PSP will be used as a remote.

6) There will be a TiVo-like add-on. They say that if you on a trip and program it do d/l your favorite shows, you can access them via the internet and d/l them into your PSP from your PS3.

7) Most games will be 720p.

8) Speed or quality: It's your call. Talking about the being able to change the resolution of some games.

Of course, much of this is old news. But I had not heard about the HDD not being used for games. It would be nice to know in more detail whats going on but as always, we have to wait and see.

Oh and this is PSM (Playstation Magazine), not OPM (Official Playstation Magazine) in case anyone wants to pick one up.

[Pai Pai Master]

Re: The Next-Gen War has Begun!

Don't trust PSM, they're wrong 50% of the time on most things that aren't official.

1) The PS3 does in fact use memory stick duos like the PSP, but it also has slots capable of reading Memory Stick, Memory Stick Duo, SD Cards and CompactFlash Cards. On top of that, Kutaragi mentioned that he plans on having "1 GB memory cards available for the same price as current PS2 memory cards."

4) The HDD will be used for games. There are already 2 MMORPGs confirmed for the Playstation 3 (Endless Saga and SOE's DC Comics MMO), and Final Fantasy XI Producer Hiromichi Tanaka earlier expressed his hopes that Sony would in fact release an HDD peripheral for the Playstation 3 so that he could port Final Fantasy XI to the system.

7) The confirmed standard for PS3 games is 1080p, like the Xbox360.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: The Next-Gen War has Begun!

Don't trust PSM, they're wrong 50% of the time on most things that aren't official.

1) The PS3 does in fact use memory stick duos like the PSP, but it also has slots capable of reading Memory Stick, Memory Stick Duo, SD Cards and CompactFlash Cards. On top of that, Kutaragi mentioned that he plans on having "1 GB memory cards available for the same price as current PS2 memory cards."

4) The HDD will be used for games. There are already 2 MMORPGs confirmed for the Playstation 3 (Endless Saga and SOE's DC Comics MMO), and Final Fantasy XI Producer Hiromichi Tanaka earlier expressed his hopes that Sony would in fact release an HDD peripheral for the Playstation 3 so that he could port Final Fantasy XI to the system.

7) The confirmed standard for PS3 games is 1080p, like the Xbox360.

I've not had any inconsistancies with PSM and I've subscribed since the first issue. Of course, this doesn't count when developers change plans with games/systems. That is beyond their control.

1 GB pro duo's for the same price as a PS2 memory card!!!? Ya riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, now that one I don't give a chance in hell. I recently bought a Sony High Speed Pro Duo for $100. and that was a STEAL!

As far as games on the HDD, I don't see why not. But since there has been no official word that FFXI will absolutely be ported to the PS3, I will still have my doubts. They announce for the 360 but yet say nothing about the PS3, just makes you wonder.

As for the standard, I just posted the first line or so of the paragraph. I wasn't typing out the entire thing. It's up to the developers and many have decided to still support 720p. For me it really isn't that big of a deal, the tv I play the most on doesn't support 1080p.

[Pai Pai Master]

Re: The Next-Gen War has Begun!

Didn't mean anything against you ^^ I have opinions about PSM and I feel that because they are an unofficial magazine, their information is sometimes inaccurate.

As for the memory card deal, Kutaragi was very vague in his discussion. Nowhere did he say that this "1 GB stick" would be in Memory Stick or Memory Stick Duo format, or SD or CompactFlash, or something completely different. However, seeing as how 1 GB SD cards are about 60-80 dollars, I wouldn't be suprised if the price dropped to about 40 dollars by the time the PS3 rolls around next year.

I believe Sony will not make the same mistake they did with the PS2 HDD. Allowing game saves to be made on the Hard Disk would be a lifesaver for many people; I know I was very upset to learn that you could not access saves from the Hard Drive on PS2, you could only back them up onto the drive. However, because of limited HDD space and the sheer power of the CELL processor, I doubt Sony will focus on allowing normal games to be installed on the HDD, as the system should be able to load games fast enough to sway it from not needing to rely on HDD installations for quick loading.

[kuu]

Re: The Next-Gen War has Begun!

I've not had any inconsistancies with PSM and I've subscribed since the first issue. Of course, this doesn't count when developers change plans with games/systems. That is beyond their control.

1 GB pro duo's for the same price as a PS2 memory card!!!? Ya riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, now that one I don't give a chance in hell. I recently bought a Sony High Speed Pro Duo for $100. and that was a STEAL!

As far as games on the HDD, I don't see why not. But since there has been no official word that FFXI will absolutely be ported to the PS3, I will still have my doubts. They announce for the 360 but yet say nothing about the PS3, just makes you wonder.

As for the standard, I just posted the first line or so of the paragraph. I wasn't typing out the entire thing. It's up to the developers and many have decided to still support 720p. For me it really isn't that big of a deal, the tv I play the most on doesn't support 1080p.

Maybe yes, maybe no, Compact flash 1gig is down to about $50, and memory cards were about $40 when 3rd party could weed it down to as little as $14. All about supply and demand. Bundling alone can cut it down to half.

PSM likes to throw in some words to turn it into a big thing. It's kinda obvious that the HDD will be able to interact with PS3, after all, you're going to run Linux, whatever OS, Tivo and other stuff.

What they probably said was -> blueray 50gig, HDD 80gig. Don't put games in HDD. The doesn't stop mmo's that need a dynamic drive to install.

Haivng different resolutions isn't very hard. The reason we had the same resolution before was because of the VRAM not reachign even TV standards. As long as you got a high ceiling, and Nividia has put a monster in there... it's more or less trivial to build for 1080p, and lowering down depending on settings. PS3 don't need to be pulled down by that.

Xbox360 on the other hand, does havea handicap in the resolution race. Bascially they are planning to use DVD9 and can squeeze 10gigs out of that at most. And anything that are "movie" like the higher resolution will mean more space. Team ninja(DOA4) themselves said that they have to seriously reconsider remaking the intro they showed at E3 into actual gameplay with all its inperfections and exect developement time due to space restrictions.

Bascially PS3 can do alla FF9 with 4 hours of FMV, hand drawn backround, etc etc etc to make things look nice, rather then render every little thing to save space. 50gigs beats 10gigs anyday, coupled with a high VRAM ceiling, when you need to make deadline. Xbox 360 doesn't have that option. Everying must be compact as possible. Unless they want to multi disc it, and that takes more programing for even trivial things.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: The Next-Gen War has Begun!

Maybe yes, maybe no, Compact flash 1gig is down to about $50, and memory cards were about $40 when 3rd party could weed it down to as little as $14. All about supply and demand. Bundling alone can cut it down to half.

They are going with Memory Stick Pro Duo's for saving your games to. A PS2 memory card is $25. The day a 1 gb pro duo comes down to $25, I'll actually eat my mother's spaghetti! (If you knew my mother, you would know this is torture beyond words!) LOL

[Macht]

Re: The Next-Gen War has Begun!

Kuu,

I noticed your debates of how if single thread was used instead of multi-threading that the Xbox would have more potentional. Normally I would agree becuase 1 core out of 3 is a no brainer 1/3 = 33.333~% and yes that is right with the 8 core deal (7 since 1 is backup) too 1/7 = 14.29%.

The thing is the cell technology from what I read about in it's IBM releases of it functions, the cell technology does not work that way. If you decate a cell processor to a single thread it is still capable of using all 8 (or 7) cores in it's single thread. This was due to each of the 8 cores having some design setup that can allow regular multi-threading or enforce a sequencing for single threads.

The cell technology in part of it's basics is a hybrid of CISC processing and RISC processing. Taking many of eachs strenghts and few of their weaknesses. So the cell processor is suppose to be cabale of operating at 100% while single-threading or multi-threading.

Double Post Edited:
Anyway to add though, yes multi-threading can be a pain in the butt. However with their processor they developed it seems that Sony was prepared this time to make an equally well developed SDK so when compiled even if it's programmed for single-thread it'll be compiled to still use all the cores and make it multi-threaded to a degree.

[kuu]

Re: The Next-Gen War has Begun!

Kuu,

I noticed your debates of how if single thread was used instead of multi-threading that the Xbox would have more potentional. Normally I would agree becuase 1 core out of 3 is a no brainer 1/3 = 33.333~% and yes that is right with the 8 core deal (7 since 1 is backup) too 1/7 = 14.29%.

The thing is the cell technology from what I read about in it's IBM releases of it functions, the cell technology does not work that way. If you decate a cell processor to a single thread it is still capable of using all 8 (or 7) cores in it's single thread. This was due to each of the 8 cores having some design setup that can allow regular multi-threading or enforce a sequencing for single threads.

The cell technology in part of it's basics is a hybrid of CISC processing and RISC processing. Taking many of eachs strenghts and few of their weaknesses. So the cell processor is suppose to be cabale of operating at 100% while single-threading or multi-threading.

I don't know how it is engineering possible to run a single thread on multi cores. They are inherently different. I will look into it.

If possible point me in the right direction.

Though everyone from "Don't print my name game developer" to Ars Technica, to gamespot has said Developers will be writing multi-threading the next-gen.

Off my head the only thing I can think of what you might have looked into is Cell front end the 64bit PPC core is bascially the "smarts" that controls everything. It has a lot of gizmos to make sure everything tries to move around smoothly like large memory storage and control logic stuff..where mult-threading comes into grinding halt if programed inproperly.

I don't think that means it can some how magically slice up a single-thread app and feed it... it would be nice if it did...

Well this only scratching Cell and whichever Microsoft's IBM is. They also took out a lot of branch-prediction, and cache.. but those are expected when you cut cost.

Edit:
Yes the compiler can try to split a thread somewhat, but it depends largely on the program. Games are a whole different monster where you need to do massive syncing. Though Most developers worth their degree can do some kind of multi threading.

Double edit:
THough one thing I ask myself. Do developers really need to squeeze 90% of cell cpu power? It certainly looks like it has a lot there already, maybe 50-70% is all you need for most games that don't push the evelope.

[Pai Pai Master]

Re: The Next-Gen War has Begun!

I would suppose that's what we'll be seeing, similar to every game release. Developers rarely use more than 50% of the system's power when it's first released, whether they know how to use that full power or not. It would seem that every game we hear about now "pushes the current generation to its limits."

If Sony plans on keeping the PS3 around for the next 10 years like Kutaragi says, then developers had better not be using even 10 percent of CELL's full potential for launch games.

[kuu]

Re: The Next-Gen War has Begun!

I would suppose that's what we'll be seeing, similar to every game release. Developers rarely use more than 50% of the system's power when it's first released, whether they know how to use that full power or not. It would seem that every game we hear about now "pushes the current generation to its limits."

If Sony plans on keeping the PS3 around for the next 10 years like Kutaragi says, then developers had better not be using even 10 percent of CELL's full potential for launch games.

Well with all my talk of Cell, I took people's mind away from other very important elements like the monster video card Nividia put in there with a much larger 50gig capacity and more of everything bascially.

You don't need a bunch of cpu power to make things look nicer. Heck give me something like Guiltygear X2 remake with FMV backrounds, 3x resolution increased sprites, and throw in some more voice acting, and effects, and it'll look 10x better.

Sometimes you need pure number crunching power, other times you just need a better video card,

[Pai Pai Master]

First Xbox 360 Launch Plans Revealed

Microsoft officially announced the pricing for the Xbox360 at the Liepzig Game Convention in Liepzig, Germany.

The 360 will launch in two separate packages - one "Core Package" for $299, and a "Premium Package" for $399. The Core Package contains the Xbox360 system, a standard AV cable, a wired controller, and a faceplate. The Premium Package contains a wireless controller, a remote control, a faceplate, a Component HD cable, an ethernet cable, the 20GB Detachable Hard Drive, a headset, and a free subscription to Xbox Live Silver. The Premium Package saves you over $200.

In addition, Microsoft announced their plethora of overpriced accessories for the system, including the 20 GB hard drive which costs $100 alone, wireless controllers for $50, 64 MB Memory Units for $40, various faceplates for $20, Component HD Cables for $40, and more.

I'm really suprised that Microsoft is cutting down the price on the Premium SKU, losing out on $200 potential smackers is either a really bad move or will attract many more people who are still indecisive about spending $400 on a videogame system.

I'm also appalled that the HDD is only 20GB, and goes for $100. Us PS2 users were able to get a 40GB HDD with two titles preloaded for that price, what's up with that? How much stuff does Microsoft expect 360 owners to try to fit on a single HDD, and do they expect people to actually buy multiple HDDs? If the compression of files is done as horribly as in the PS2 version of FFXI, then FFXI alone will take up more than half the space on the Xbox360 HDD.


A launch date and a list of launch games is expected at a later date - either later this week at the GC, or next month at TGS.

[TBoTB]

Re: First Xbox 360 Launch Plans Revealed

I guess the premium has my name all on it. 20 gigs is a lot of nothing. for those who havent noticed, on an NTFS drive with both exapnsion packs fully updated, FFXI as a whole takes up 12 gigs ._. Do you know how much anime i can fit in that 12 gig slot? For MS to release 20gigs with the 399 package, i would think they are making a huge mistake... but it will be a loss as of now for the gain of the future. Those who do get the 399 package (like me) i guess we'll be buying another hard drive once the 80-100g HDD comes out -.- My only question to that is how will we transfer stuff from the small crappy old busted HDD to the huge spectacular new hotness HDD? I'm hoping they either alow for a adapter that allows you to connect your X360HDD to the computer, or they allow for direct connection between HDD with a hot transfer and/or syncronize button.

[kuu]

Re: First Xbox 360 Launch Plans Revealed

Market spin

There should be little to stop people from third partying a HDD, unless they put some kind of firmware into it. Though in their slight defense... 2.5" HDD are a bit more costly then 3.2"...

[TBoTB]

Re: First Xbox 360 Launch Plans Revealed

Market spin

There should be little to stop people from third partying a HDD, unless they put some kind of firmware into it. Though in their slight defense... 2.5" HDD are a bit more costly then 3.2"...

Isnt the HDD connection proprietary?

[Macht]

Re: First Xbox 360 Launch Plans Revealed

Market spin

There should be little to stop people from third partying a HDD, unless they put some kind of firmware into it. Though in their slight defense... 2.5" HDD are a bit more costly then 3.2"...

Ehh?

Did I miss some data somewere. When did MS state that their HDD was 2.5" I know Sony annouced that for their PS3 but I didn't see that for Xbox 360.

Either way though it is a bit more costly yes, but not $5.00 to a GB worth costly. That's just insaine.